any 993 3.6 DME gurus out there? Car wont start

[rattlsnak]

(reposted from Rennlist)

>>>Long story short, i just put in my engine in my project car which is an early 95 build car with a late build euro 95 engine, I dont have an immobilizer module or wiring under the drivers seat, so i would have to say this car does not have it, although i know some us/euro cars did in 95. It does have the central alarm system.
The problem is when i try to start it, it spins over fine and starts for a quick second, then quits, although the engine is still spinning from the starter. I have verified that the injector pulse goes away when this happens, so im 'assuming' that the alarm system is shutting it off for whatever reason. I dont have a key fob for it, and the module came from another car anyway. Foolish me put the key in the door and locked / unlocked the door trying to 'release' the module, but now the lights are flashing (alarm has been triggered)

Questions,
1. I only see one part number on the alarm module with or without immobilizer, is that correct? If so, how do they interact, or how does the non immobilizer alarm module know if it needs to see a signal from that module?

2. Can i bypass the module to make the car start? I have unplugged it, but it wont start that way either. Any wires to jump?

3. How do I 'untrigger' the alarm or reset it?

4. Is the alarm the cause of my car not starting by way of shutting off fuel? (is that a feature on it or not?)

5. Any other ideas ??

Any help would be greatly appreciated..!


>>>Ive been digging a litle deeper.. I jumped the DME relay but it still wont start, which tells me the DME is not seeing something it needs to see from the alarm module to start it. I dont have an immobilizer, and the service manual says the alarm system is the module that "prevents the car from being driven off by disabling the fuel system".


>>>ok, with more digging, i was able to 'unprime' the alarm. By looking at the wiring schematics i saw that connector 2, pin 1 and 2 receives the lock/unlock signal from the key locks in the doors. Now heres the wierd part, i dont have the two wires installed in my car! So i would like to know how the heck it gets a signal. But anyway, to disable it, i simply stuck a pin into the connector and grounded it, like the schematic shows and it worked.

But, thats another issue... I still have the starting issue. Same thing, start for just a second, then it loses the injector signal. I have verified that the Term 15 feed from the alarm is sending the signal to the DME (now that the alarm is reset anyway!) so that whole system should be out of the loop. If I spray some carb cleaner into the intake it will stay running.

So two issues..
1. the no start issue
2. in the back of my mind the alarm thing is still messing with me.. The system will arm if i use the key, but the wires arent there. That bugs me, like there is another module somewhere!

And as far as the immobilzer is concerned on the newer cars, i traced down the differences in wiring between a 96 car and a 95 car, and the immobilizer interupts the cicuit to the starter. The alarm has to see a signal from that module to send power through to term 15 in the DME unit. The alarm only cars must see a key cylinder siganl or remote signal to send the power. They also receive the door siganl instead of the alarm module, so thats about the only differences. Thats how all the people running these motors in older cars, (like my 72, 3.6 transplant) get them to run, simply running a 'hot' ignition wire to term 15 of the DME.

[jevvy]

Hi Mate

Sounds like the drive block to me - I had the same problem with my 3.6 conversion.

Did the ECU you have come with the car or the engine?
What is the part number on the ECU?

I will go and dig out the info I found on it while you check the part number.

[jevvy]

What is the part number of the ECU?

Is it perchance 993.618.124.xx?

If it is 124 and not 123 then it is drive blocked and will just kick but not run.

[beamonk]

I too have a 124 in my yet, uninstalled conversion. What needs to be dome to remove the drive block? How do you know for sure the 124 has the drive block?
Thanks,

[rattlsnak]

I do have the .124 ECU. What exactly is drive block? Everybody calls things different names, but I know of the Immobilzer and Central Alarm modules. Both of which can be bypassed, which i did, and it still wont start. I know some people call the Immobilzer a Drive Block system. Is it something different? If its as simple as getting a new chip, I'm doing that anyway, it just hasnt come in yet.

[ben@benlovejoy.]

I had the same issue with mine. The 993 has an immobiliser circuit built into the ECU which defaults to immobilised, and needs a positive signal from the 993 immobiliser to unblock it - and of course you don't have that.

The chip needs to be reprogrammed to bypass the immobiliser circuit inside the ECU itself.

Ben

[ianc]

The chip needs to be reprogrammed to bypass the immobiliser circuit inside the ECU itself.

I believe Steve Weiner at Rennsport Systems in Oregon offers this service. Try giving him a call. I don't have his contact info handy, but a search here will give you what you need,

ianc

[rattlsnak]

>>I had the same issue with mine. The 993 has an immobiliser circuit built into the ECU which defaults to immobilised, and needs a positive signal from the 993 immobiliser to unblock it - and of course you don't have that.<<

Not all 993s had the immobilizer module, which was the confusing part. My car didnt have it, but the engine/dme i got from another car apparantly does.

[jevvy]

Hi Mate

As far as I remember with a 124 part number ECU is is matched to the imobiliser on the car and you would need all of that to get it to work with the current ECU.

You have 3 options:
Buy a new 123 ECU (this is what I did)
Get the ECU unlocked (As Ian says Steve is the man for this but you might also get him to 'chip' it at the same time as I think it costs very little more)
Buy a 'chip' for your ECU - Steve Timmins cyntex(sp) chips for example.

As an off the wall idea when I spoke to Robbie at Ninemeister in the UK he was sure that on 1 conversion he got round the drive block by connecting one for the black wires that come out from under the drivers seat in a 3.2 to one of the pins on the ECU but he couldnt remember exactly which one - might be worth looking into.

Good luck sorting it out - I know I was sooo frustrated when I found this out on mine as everything else was in place and the car would hav fired up first time after the conversion had I had a 123 ECU.

[3.6 911]

call Timmins as he has ecu's that have been reprogrammed in stock.

[rattlsnak]

aftermore digging, thats exactly what has happened. I have a non immobilizer car, with an drive blocked ECU. No way to jump pins, because the message is received over the data bus. My car doesnt have the extra connector, so a chip is on the way.

the alarm issue is something i will deal with once i get the car running!

[jevvy]

Cool, at least you are on the right track to sorting it out now - good luck

[Luka]

I have the same problem now,somehow,the immobilizer locked itself and the car won't start.I borrowed a friends immobilizer and then it worked. So,can immobilizer be reprogrammed to send that data signal or must the main computer be reprogrammed to skip that check when starting?

Thanks,

Luka

[Steve W]

You can change the DME chip to one from a non-immobilizer car, 993.618.123.xx to override the immobilizer function.

[Luka]

thanks,I took the DME and immobilizer unit to an workshop which is specialized for auto electronics since I don't have the chip available,especially since it's an 3.8 engine x51.

I'll post what I managed to do.

thanks!

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Steve W

You can change the DME chip to one from a non-immobilizer car, 993.618.123.xx to override the immobilizer function.

I changed the whole DME
my car oem, '95 993 had the 124 DME which is set up to use the immobilizer in the car.

I swapped the DME to a 123 w/ appropriate chip. The immobilizer still has effect in that it controlls the starter relay(maybe fuel pump too, I haven't tracked down exactly what) so the car is still immobbilized though not to the extent that it was.

The immobilizer doesn't function exactly the same as before in that the only light that indicates it's function is now the one in the door, no dash light.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Luka

thanks,I took the DME and immobilizer unit to an workshop which is specialized for auto electronics since I don't have the chip available,especially since it's an 3.8 engine x51.

I'll post what I managed to do.

thanks!

Please do let us know how it works out, I just bought a 3.8RS chip from Steve W, i'll report on how it works out.

[Luka]

Well,the electronics workshop didn't help me much other then to establish that the all the components in the box are ok.

So I bought a new battery for the factory alarm remote (that I don't use at all) and managed to unlock it by pressing and holding the key for longer time and cranking.

Then a few days ago I drained the battery by leaving the position lights on and when I charged it again guess what,the immobilizer is locked again!!! But this time I can't unlock it. The car starts and after 1 second it suts off...

Who can I ask for software from the 124 car,I would like to buy the bin file and upload it in my eprom.

Thanks,

Luka

[DW SD]

Did you contact Steve Weiner? He's all over this board and highly experienced professional.

Doug

[Luka]

Originally Posted by DW SD

Did you contact Steve Weiner? He's all over this board and highly experienced professional.

Doug

Yes I have,we're talking about the problem right now,

Thanks!