Helmet for DE ??

[Jcon]

Looks like Santa is a little tired of my hobby, and negelected to bring several key items for 2002.

I will be ordering a helmet soon for DE's and Autocross, I don't wear glasses is there any advantage to full face vs. openface? Any reccomendations on a particular helmet.

Thanks

Jeff C
81 SC

[patalive]

Jeff, here is one of many threads on helmets -

http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52676&highlight=Helmets
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If you do a search, using Helmets as the key word, you will find a number of discussions.
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Cheers

[don911]

Jeff,
Most people go with full face helmets. I bought a full face last year. I bought the simpson RXN. I got it mostly because I liked the looks of it but it's not a good DE helmet. The eye holes are too small. If you go with full face, make the eye holes are big enough so you can see more than just straight ahead. Other wise you have to move your head to see anything. If I had to do it over again I'd get an open face helmet for DE.
good luck!

[Jcon]

That's what I was thinking. I can see the obvious advantage of full face protection, but does it just make communicating and vision that much more difficult or dangerous. I'm leaning toward openface...Anymore realworld input would be appreciated.


Thanks

Jeff C
81 SC

[scottmandue]

If you are not too concerned with looks you may try a motocross (motorcycle) helmet. They have large eye holes to acomadate goggles. I had one for motorcycling and loved it.

[Efrain68912]

I would recommend a full face helmet, regardless of what you're doing on a racetrack (club race, D.E., etc.) I use a full face helmet - especially since my racecar is a roadster. Almost all of the 911 racers in VARA use full face helmets, and leave the visor up. I would also strongly recommend a neck brace - I had a heavy crash a year or so ago where I hit a k-rail lined with tires at a pretty good rate of speed. My neck brace kept my head from snapping forward, and I was hardly sore the next day.

Efrain
68 912 Coupe

[emcon5]

Originally posted by scottmandue
If you are not too concerned with looks you may try a motocross (motorcycle) helmet.

Make sure whatever you check with whoever runs the events you plan on attending to see what helmet ratings they allow. Some (most?) require "SA" rated helmets, and don't allow "M" rated motorcycle helmets.

It would be good to find out before you spend any money.

Tom

[Jack Olsen]

If you're strapped in with a five-point belt, then most of the danger to your head in a collision or off-track incident is going to come from your head slamming into the window, roof, or window frame of the car. Consider this clip of a viper losing its brakes. The airbags really don't have to do much because there's very little forward movement allowed by the harnesseses. If your seat hinges snap after a rear impact, the back of your head can collide with your harness guide bars or roll bar. So the back and sides of your head are at greatest risk.

Viper crash.

But there is always the risk that your belts are going to fail, or that something is going to intrude into the cockpit in a collision, and that means you could conceivably rearrange your mouth and jaw if you're wearing an open face helmet. From a safety standpoint, it's a no-brainer. The more protection the better.

Then again, open face is cooler and makes it easier to communicate with an instructor or passenger. I use an open face helmet.

I think the greatest risk in a track accident is probably to your neck and back. And -- although I have a neck ring -- I don't think it would really do all that much for me in a high speed impact. They're made of foam, after all. A version of the HANS device would probably be the biggest safety improvement track drivers could add this side of a full cage, but (like a full cage) it's cost-prohibitive and also looks like it would be a big pain in the neck to use (although long-term pain in the neck is just the sort of thing it would eliminate).

[ChrisBennet]

You fellows who tape your stopwatches to your airbag steering wheels will be happy you're wearing a full face helmet if that air bag ever goes off. A few years ago I saw what is left of a stopwatch when the airbag bounces it off a helmet. -Chris

[addictionMS]

Here is what I wear, nomex underwear, Momo Nomex suit, nomex sox, nomex gloves, nomex balaclava, Kevlar helmet, no fear race shoes, and a full ring neck support (upgrading to HANS this season)

I value my health, I have seen too many crashes not to have the best on my body. Hang around a race track long enough and someone you know will get hurt.

I would also consider your seat, I used to race in a low end Kirkey, but after talking to several people I have bought the top of the line Kirkey and upgraded my belts, these are as important as everything else you wear, the keep you in place and are the mechanism where the force of the impact you are preparing for transfers to you body.

I think you can never have too much safety equipment, too often drivers a re quick to buy the upgrade that will give them more speed, but cut the corners on the safety that will save their lives (even if that only means a speedier recovery it is worth it).


Jim

[Jcon]

Damn Jack !!!!!

That is one expensive video -( I mean for me) my wife was watching over my shoulder.

Jim makes some very good points. I like the looks and feel of the open face and the increased ability to communicate, but I think if safety is the game, and as a father of three boys it has to be, then full face it is.

Now on to belts and seats. I'll criuse the archives before I start with the questions.

Thanks

Jeff C
81 SC - Track Bound in '02

[jluetjen]

Jack; I'm going to watch the viper vidio later when I have the 30+ minutes to download it so this is not meant as a direct response to the video. I'd like to respond to this portion of your reply:

The airbags really don't have to do much because there's very little forward movement allowed by the harnesseses. If your seat hinges snap after a rear impact, the back of your head can collide with your harness guide bars or roll bar. So the back and sides of your head are at greatest risk.

From what I've seen, Airbags are very important even if a person has an excellent harness set-up. The Discovery Channel had an excellent show a couple of years ago about what caused death in car accidents. Obviously there are many possibilities, but one of the most common causes was severe trama at the base of the brain caused by the damage where the skull attaches to the neck. As Sir Issac Newton (and the folks at Hans) pointed out, anything in motion will stay in motion (etc. etc.). In very few situations are a person's head restrained as well as their body. As a result the head continues forward in a frontal collision while the body stays strapped to the seat. Often this motion is enough to cause death. (Try keeping your shoulders still while you reach your face as far forward as possible) If you survive that, it then bounces back again and could hit the headrest. These are the motions that Airbags are designed to dampen. Otherwise only thing restraining the head is the neck. Finally the sudden impact of the head on anything causes the brain to "slosh" forward and back again. The slightly "softer" nature of airbags compared to steel helps with this also. Once again where the head attaches to neck is especially vulnerable.

My understanding is that the Hans device allows the large area of helmet padding to deaccellarate the head, and if the force is too much, the straps on the Hans device will stretch prior the the carbon-fibre frame eventually breaking. All of which give the brain time to deaccelerate in a controlled fashion without snapping the neck. If you ask me, the Hans guys are geniuses for addressing a problem that lots of great minds had ignored.

If there are any 911 owner-Doctors out there or other experts, I'd appreaciate learning if I got this right. We're all in agreement, that Safety is paramount. There have been a lot of advances in the last few years that I think are important for people to be aware of.

Dead 911 owners don't make good club members.

[patalive]

I agree with AddictionMS, don't scimp on safety equipment. (Do as I say, not as I do ).
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Back to one of your original questions, a full face helmet will help protect your jaw in an accident. You just NEVER know what will happen in an accident. At Summit Point, we have trees and shrubs adjacant to the track. It is not too far fetched to think that during a serious roll over event, limbs and branches could enter thru a smashed windshield or thru the open side window. (the side window is required to remain open). Note, we also have deer crossing the track during certain times of the year!
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As for communications, an in-car communicator does the trick, and as I posted several days ago, NADY is having a deep discount sale on several of their models.
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Chuck

[Jack Olsen]

John, that's an aspect of it that I hadn't considered, and I agree with you 100%. The airbag will certainly help to decelerate forward head movement, and that's an absolute good.

But with or without the bags, your chin isn't going to be taking the brunt of the blow, I'd guess. So the question of open-face or full-face question is still somewhat seperate from that of airbags and harnesses. I've never heard of jaw or face injuries from impact with an airbag, but that doesn't mean they haven't happened.

The point is certainly valid that the biggest threat to your life is whatever's involved in decelerating your head, and keeping it well connected to your body, so that your spinal cord isn't damaged. Are HANS devices available for cars without full cages?

[Nickshu]

The primary difference between SA and M rated helmets that SA must have a flame retardant liner such as Nomex, while M helmets use nylon or other fun materials which tend to melt to your skin in the event of a fire. I don't believe there is much difference between the two as far as crash protection/strength.

PCA National's regulations require only a "M" helmet for Autocross and DE events...however some local chapters or particular tracks bump this up to the "SA", so check there first. SA is required for PCA/POC club racing events.

If you get an M...make sure it is at least Snell M95 approved.

www.motorcyclesuperstore.com has some good deals on helmets.

Hope this helps,
Nick

[Eric Coffey]

Regarding helmets, I too would recommend a full-face model. I use an Arai GP-4K , and had a Bell Vortex before that. Both are very comfortable, lightweight helmets with unmatched impact protection. When I had my 1985 coupe (track car), it was set up with Sparco EVO seats and 5-point Sabelt/TRW 3" belts, along with a full cage. It is amazing how much more confidence and sense of security that is gained from a good safety setup (cage, seats, belts, helmet, etc.). Not to mention, two of the key elements, the seat and belts, will greatly increase your "seat-of-the-pants" feel and make you more "one" with the car. All of which helps tremendously when driving at the limit.

Also, to ad to the comments before: I think one of the main benefits of a full-face helmet on an airbag-equipped car is to prevent facial burns/lacerations from violent airbag deployment. If I where running with active airbags, I would not even consider an open-face helmet.

[jluetjen]

Jack;
You might want to pose your question about Hans devices and non-caged cars to the Hans folks. You can check out their site at... http://www.hansdevice.com/index.htm.

From what I've seen, they are held in place between the twin shoulder belts and the users shoulders. So I would think that a Hans device would be usable in a car with 5 or 6 point racing style seatbelts.

I'm going to be ponying up the cash for one before I turn a wheel in anger in my 911.

- John

[Erik Mckenna]

I have an Open and a fullface.
The open is a Simpson and the full face is a Arai Gp5.

[emcon5]

Erik, you realize this thread is almost 5 years old, right?

Tom

[Erik Mckenna]

Ya sure I did....Tom,
no.... really I didn't.

Maybe the info can be passed on.
but thanks! haha