Swepco issues

Got off the phone with Roy at Motor M today questioned him about my trans (which I've concluded is wasted) he brought up the fact that Swepco gear oil is too thin for Porsche transmissions and using it will void the warranty on his rebuilds.

He stated racers love it and it makes your car shift well because its thin but it does not protect your trans at all after my initial shock I can see how this may make sense as I have babied the shifting while driving my car ,when I drained my fluid a month ago I could tell it had Swepco in it as it was Blue and had the same smell as the new Swepco I put in it (I also found dog teeth in the plug and Roy stated I should have immediatly stopped driving the car then to prevent more damage),he also mentioned you can smell burnt fluid often with trans that have swepco in them verifying the fact of break down of the oil
Which after smelling my fluid after draining it today It is definately burnt

My car has 125k on it and since I have owned it and put 30k on it I have shifted smoothly and easily I can see no reason why my trans should have blown up with this many miles other than the fact the oil had not done its job in protecting it

I would like to hear opinions on this!



[This message has been edited by jryerson (edited 06-06-2000).]

Well, it seems Roy has some 'interesting views,' to say the least, and he won't have to worry about getting any of my business!

I don't see how anyone could confuse the 'smell' of SWEPCO with 'burnt' petroleum, in a manual gearbox, or even suggest such a thing, but each to his own ... opinion!

I don't think Bruce Anderson's long Porsche experience can be dismissed in this matter! He has recommended SWEPCO for years, and I believe Garretson Enterprises was the first Porsche-oriented supplier to offer and recommend SWEPCO, others merely followed a trend. The damage to your transaxle would likely have happened regardless of what oil was in it ... oil cannot protect against a forced shift! I assume from you description that synchro hub teeth are the chunks you found at the last gear oil change ... I don't know what circumstances led to the broken parts, and it is really immaterial to the issue of whether the SWEPCO is too thin, or not. What damaged parts came out with your most recent oil draining?

One last question ... what weight gear oil does your owner's manual specify ... mine says SAE 90, but I believe Porsche followed industry trends in specifying thinner gear oil in recent years. 30 years ago you couldn't even find 75W-80 or 80W-90 gear oil in stores ... straight SAE 90, or 90W-140 was all that was avilable! SWEPCO meets all industry standards and probably exceeds them by a wide margin. I wonder what Roy thinks of Redline, or any of the other 'thinner' oils?

In summary, I think Roy's beliefs are contrary to many Porsche experts, and I do consider that to be a rather small group that includes Bruce Anderson and the ANDIAL principals!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

I agree with what you have said Warren,
the chips I found in the plug were dog teeth along with an overflow of shavings, the P.O. of my car was a fanatic definately and I am sure was very aware of proper shifting technique as the car had a full set of factory manuals along with all original toolkit and every possible update needed tensioners,pop off,16x7s and 16x8s Fuchs,H-1 european headlights etc,even the original Blaupukt stereo deck, so no expense has been spared on this car, it seems premature to me for my car to have this failure.

Roy doesn't seem to like synthetics at all as in previous posts he mentioned the premature camshaft and valve train wear in 3.6s that have used Mobil One exclusively
He again will void warrantees on rebuilds that use synthetics claiming again they are too thin for protection .
Even though Swepco is not a synthetic he claims it has synthetic additives and properties.

Interestingly all I found were a few more shavings no more dog teeth in my fluid today I expected to see heavy metal damage from the way my trans has acted since failure

Its possible a slider has broken and is jammed somewhere preventing shifting into 1st,3rd and 4th gears I'll find out when I drop my motor and crack open the trans



[This message has been edited by jryerson (edited 06-06-2000).]

Sorry to hear about the trans. being a total.
Currently I have mobil 1 in mine but I will eventually go to swepco to try it out. If it meets all standards it (any oil) should be fine even though some are better than others.

Just MHO.

s

Interesting reasoning about the synthetics from Roy. There was a recent letter, quite hostile, questioning Mobil 1 usage in Porsches that Bruce Anderson handled in a recent Excellence issue ... he went to various sources at Mobil and Porsche, but the gist was that there is no problem at all, and ALL engines at Porsche continue to be filled with Mobil 1 when they leave the factory!

All of the discussion about oils and change intervals is GOOD if it gets everyone thinking about these issues, never to be forgotten!

I do not have an answer as to what is causing a rash of gearbox problems with our Porsches, but I suspect in most cases it is just time creeping up on years of neglect, a most definite 'cumulative' effect that is hard to counteract with anything but a 'BAND-AID' and more careful use.

One thing that I feel would help considerably, but is simply not available in any form of 'kit,' except in a few very expensive versions for racers, is a pump, cooler, and filtration system for the gearboxes. Porsche would have improved the reliability of the 915 immensely, had they made a pump, cooler and filter standard in the '70's, but long-lived gearboxes don't satisfy bean counters, even though it probably would have been an industry first!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Warren, great idea about the filter and cooler I am sure it would have saved my trans

One more point to consider, in Roys defense his shop is probably on of the biggest if not the biggest Porsche 911 rebuilders in the country he has seen many different engines and the reasons for failure or worn parts
Bruce Anderson has stated in his book he has never had to rebuild a SC engine from wearing out (I am sure he has since the 1st printing)but not the numbers MM sees,granted Bruce has a school but a few times a year they tear down a motor in class? Bruce has extensive vast knowlege at modifications for performance issues but again has he seen the vast numbers of higher milage motors broken down?
Andial is basically a modifier and gets mostly newer cars again not seeing the high milelage or vast numbers of used higher milage motors

With MotorMeister they see the all the typical problems and wore out parts, what reason or advantage would Roy have to disapprove of synthetics and void warrantees? If the synthetics were as great as the claims Roy should embrace them.

[This message has been edited by jryerson (edited 06-07-2000).]

The statement Bruce Anderson makes about SC engines is in my copy of his book, purchased very recently. I suspect it is the current 'edition.' And I also have the impression that he, and his colleague whose name I don't recall, both have shops with customers and they DO repair and maintain ordinary Porsches. The statement he makes is in the context of these customers. He specifically states that his customers were approaching 250k miles, and his colleague has a customer with 455k miles, original motor.

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'83 SC

Just playing devil's (?) advocate for a moment:

1) MM makes money rebuilding 911 motors and trannies
2) Highly respected members of the 911 community recommend Swepco oil to protect transmissions and prevent wear
3) MM says using Swepco will void your warranty (what, a whole year?)

Face it, folks. MM is in the business of making money. Just like Porsche is now (hence the whole SUV fiasco).

Or maybe I'm just too jaded by my corporate experiences.

blue, ever the conspiracy theorist
'81 911SC Targa

Another devil play:

Rebuilding an engine or tranny is not a REAL big deal for an expert.
But getting PORSCHE engine and tranny all together again WITHOUT oil leaks is the challenge!
I personally would also made my reservations for thin synthetic oil-I will definitely do not put it in my car now, as I hate these swimming pool-size drops on the floor.
But after rebuilt, as the owner, make up your mind if the best stuff available is good or bad for your car!

BTW: A good friend of mine is working at Shell. Considering this question, he assured, that the old quality motor oil is definitely good enough for old Porsches, as they are designed accordingly. But even for my old tranny, he recommended newer oil with better additives to improve shifting, which I will try soon (no Swepco available here in Germany).
Anyway, good luck with the rebuild. But I would look around for soemone offering warrenty WITH synthetic oils!

Jens

Another devil play:

Rebuilding an engine or tranny is not a REAL big deal for an expert.
But getting PORSCHE engine and tranny all together again WITHOUT oil leaks is the challenge!
I personally would also made my reservations for thin synthetic oil-I will definitely do not put it in my car now, as I hate these swimming pool-size drops on the floor.
But after rebuilt, as the owner, make up your mind if the best stuff available is good or bad for your car!

BTW: A good friend of mine is working at Shell. Considering this question, he assured, that the old quality motor oil is definitely good enough for old Porsches, as they are designed accordingly. But even for my old tranny, he recommended newer oil with better additives to improve shifting, which I will try soon (no Swepco available here in Germany).
Anyway, good luck with the rebuild. But I would look around for soemone offering warrenty WITH synthetic oils!

Jens

I am sure that Jerry Woods and Bruce Anderson, have about as much experience in Northern California, both at Garretson Enterprises, and since, as it is possible to get with customer cars of both the street and racing variety over the past 25 years, including at least one win at the Le Mans 24 Hour race. That is the 'arena' (quite extensive) in which Bruce has tested and used SWEPCO 201.

It certanly has proved satisfactory to me over the past 15 years, in my own cars' gearboxes and rear axles, as well as friends and co-workers I have recommended it to. No failures or rebuilds required in any vehicle it has been used in for the past 15 years is a record worth mentioning. That has been my experience.

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Does anyone have an internet or e-mail address for Swepco? I am trying to find out if they have a distributor in Australia as I want to start using it in my 901 trans.

Thanks


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Paul
911T'69

http://www.swepcousa.com/



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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Have used synthetic oils in 911 cars for years, first in Europe and now back here in the states, with no problems at all. If the motor or gearbox is not tight (leaking or seeping) then the synthetic will tend to leak more, but fix the leak!

BMW now puts synthetic oils in all of their motorcycles (own one of them too) and if both Porsche and BMW recommends it I fail to see how they would push something that would not protect an aircooled engine. Remember that on the BMW bikes the motor oil also lubes the gearbox and its 15-40W... kinda shoots down the need to have 80 or 90 weight in the gearbox.

If Bruce Anderson says it works, I would tend to believe it over most other sources.

Thanks Warren

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Paul
911T'69

It has been stated that SWEPCO 201 is thinner than the non-synthetics. What is the viscosity of Swepco (at 25C) vs the others? Anyone know?

SWEPCO is not a synthetic oil!!!

S[outh] W[est] P[etroleum] CO[mpany].

But, I agree that it is the best in a 915.

FWIW, I really like the feel of a Swepco-lubed 915 better than ordinary (non-synthetic) gear oils.

[This message has been edited by JackOlsen (edited 06-08-2000).]

Years ago, what I got from Garretson Enterprises was straight SAE 90, but I believe the blue that everyone seems to be selling, now, is 80W-90, the 'thinnest they make, and certainly not thin enough to 'worry' about!

The grades available are 80W-90, 90, 140, and 250, as shown at this web-page for high-performance autos:


www.swepcousa.com/lubesite/products/h201.htm


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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

[This message has been edited by Early_S_Man (edited 06-08-2000).]

Warren - if I am understanding this correctly the ad lists many available weights for the SWEPCO 201. Which one do you suggest for street use? There is a HUGE difference in viscosity ranges for the weights listed. As you know the oil's viscosity must match the real world heat ranges seen by the tranny. I've never seen data on temperature ranges for stock application transmitions during street use (traffic jams, hot days, cold days, long drives at static RPMs, etc). This would be extremely useful information for 911 drivers living in temporate climates like I do. One weight might not be ideal for year around use. You've convinced me to do the SWEPCO change, I want to get it right!