Does the math work for engine rebuild

[daddygo]

I'm in a quandry and would like some input.

I picked up this 1973 Targa (Euro) with a badly leaking 2.4 engine and badly leaking 915 tranny. The PO said that it ran in 2004 and the registration seems to back that up, but he let it sit since then. He also said that it shifts hard in 2nd and 3rd.

As I shop around for rebuilding I hear $8500 for a clean up rebuild - nothing major replaced, mainly machining and gaskets, and $15K for a performance upgrade to 2.7L with new carbs and cam etc. The tranny rebulid is close to $2000 with just a gasket set and replace any worn parts.

This seems pretty consistent with the quality rebuilders mentioned on Pelican.

So the first question is... is it worth it to rebuild the original engine and tranny to the tune of $11K to $17K, or find a good used set for $4-$6K?

This car also needs a respray and the interior freshened up... adding even more to the bill... my estimate another $7K, including rust work which is minor.

The second question: Is this car worth the $18-24K in refreshing, or should I sell it to one of these flippers that send them to Germany?

[DByers]

Well the first question that will be asked, is it a T, E or S? Looks like a T to me.
Second question, whats your driving plan? daily driver, weekends, DE's, possible track?
How long do you plan to keep the car?
Do you have a budget in mind?

From the looks I would think minor rust will be more towards major once you start the process. I would also say to budget for suspension parts.

If your up for the task and have the budget I say make it what you want. Going all original will have a best resale down the road with the early cars more then likely.

My .02

[IROC]

Faced with this dilemma a few years ago, I bought a nice 3.2 with 22k miles on a full rebuild to replace my 2.7 for $6k. I now have power and torque that would have cost many kilobucks to achieve with my 2.7 for less than the cost to rebuild the 2.7 to stock form.

I loved that 2.7, but the economics won out. If I had unlimited funds, a really trick, maxed out 2.7 would have been cool, but it wasn't meant to be...

Mike

[silverc4s]

By coincidence, I happen to have a 73 T targa with the rebuilt original 915 trans and a 87 3.2 motronic engine. 16' wheels, 6 and 7's and S brakes are about the only other mods needed to make a pretty fun driver. A lot less money than you are looking at above. Just make sure you get a 3.2 that has 30K or so miles left in it, and you'll be good to go.
Keep all the old stuff under a tarp, as it may someday be worth putting back to original. it is NOT at this time, IMHO.

[LakeCleElum]

Like somebody on here once said. They're all $20,000 dollar cars. You pay that when you buy a good one, or have that in it when it's finished.

Learn to do the work yourself, figure out what needs done first and work thru it as you have the time and money.

[daepp]

Henry Schmidt @ Supertec in So. Cal. will rebuild it with performance mods for what I believe is significantly less than you are stating herein.

And it ends up looking like a piece of mechanical art!

Email me if you have any questions - or do a search on his company.

[daddygo]

Nope... Henry starts at $8500 for a no frills engine rebuild and goes up from there. I'm positive that his work is great, but it is expensive as well.

[47silver]

does the engine run? Leaking oil is not a major item, a pain but repairable.

did you do a leak down test?

the transmission is repairable also.
i would pull the motor, fix the transmission, fix the oil leaks and drive it.

[JP911]

Rust repair, respray, engine rebuild, transmission rebuild. You're basically talking about a complete restoration. The car could be fabulous, but you'll be upside down on it for a long time. Nothing wrong with that if it's what you want out of your 911 experience.

[Rob Channell]

I faced a similar problem with my 72 Targa. The original engine was only running on 4.5 cylinders. I figured it was at least as good as a 912, but wanted more. I bought a longblock and had the heads rebuilt. The car runs well now except for a carb idle jet that keeps plugging up. When I was done spending money on the old engine and then the new one I figure I have spent well over $3500 total on an engine that is still just a 2.7 with a used bottom end. I will probably recoup a little from selling the old 2.4 long block, but it is still a fair amount of money for just an average motor.

I think a 3.2 or a good 3.0 if available would have been a better choice for a little more money. The increase in torque and power would be awesome and the resale value would probably be higher.

When my 911SC motor died several years ago I got a basic $8k rebuild estimate and bought a used 3.2 for $6500 instead. I haven't looked back. It's been great. The only thing that could make me think differently would be if I had enough extra money to do a 3.6.

If most of the rest of the car is original and it still has MFI you might consider that and either rebuild the engine to S or RS specs with the MFI or bolt in another engine and keep the original one to rebuild later for originality.

[Evans, Marv]

Number one possibility: I agree with 47silver. Fix the things that are wrong with it & drive it.
Number two possibility: Buy a used 3.0 or 3.2 & good used tranny (or fix yours), install them & drive it.
Number three possibility: Buy a good running 2.4 or 2.7 & used tranny (or fix yours), install them & drive it.
Number four possibility: Rebuild either the 2.4, upgrade it to a 2.7, or redo a 2.7, rebuild the tranny & drive it. This if the most expensive way to go & performance doesn't match a 3.0 or 3.2.
There was a thread not too long ago with a very true statement that said you spend $20K (or something like that) to increase the resale value by $8K.
Good luck.

[Grady Clay]

Welcome to the Forum.

You will find a lot of help here. I see you have been collecting bits & pieces.

How well does it run, aside from oil leaks?

I would lean toward repairing the oil leaks and all the other items and put some miles on it. DIY you won’t have much additional money in it.

This will allow you to perform some important diagnostics and get to know the details of the 911. This will also allow you to make a better informed decision some time down the road.

If/when you rebuild the engine I would keep it stock or at least stock appearing. That is where the long term value is. You can build a 275 hp 2.8S twin plug and have the engine appear identical to original. That can also be returned to a 2.4 or 2.7 911T anytime in the future.

The same is true parking the original engine and building a different 2.4 or bigger 3.x MFI twin plug from a later core.
I agree, talk to Henry and others.
Henry Schmidt
SUPERTEC PERFORMANCE
Ph: 760-728-3062
Email: supertec1@earthlink.net
Web: supertecperformance.com

In any case, restore it to the original MFI.

Where is there rust? How extensive?

Get it off the stands and some miles on it.

Best,
Grady

[911gone]

The economics of the 1974 to 1989 cars don't favor complete rebuilds. Even if an older car is free, if it is tired and worn the money spent on engine, trans, and cosmetics will put one upside down. Run if you see rust too. The best deal is a car lovingly cared for at a higher initial price.

[daddygo]

911gone: Its a 1973... does that change your input?

Grady: It isn't running. The oil leaks are everywhere but the valve covers... the worst seems to be the camshaft oil return tubes that rotate at the touch of a finger. This car is a Euro version so it did not come with MFI... it came stock with twin zeniths, which also leak fuel out of every orifice. Henry said the zeniths should be put in a box and replaced with PMO's and said that the engine would need a rebuild with the number of miles it has on it.(177,000 Kilometers).

The rust does not appear to be extensive... I've pulled all the bumpers, trim and seals off and poked under the window seals which will come out this week... a couple of spots in the trunk water gutter underneath the seal, and one spot behind the front passenger wheel are all I have found.

[Early_S_Man]

The price levels you have mentioned are all 'Checkbook Restoration' prices, something many of us can't relate to ...

Plan on DIY work, build a reference library, and gather the proper tools ... your $25K wish list comes down to $10K!

The oil leaks are quickly fixable, especially the oil return tubes ... Saturday afternoon job, easy with the two-piece replacements and a tube of Dow Corning 111 Silicone Grease! Zeniths are rebuildable, too ... another Saturday, another problem fixed ... stinky with the Chem-Dip, though, outdoors!

With 107K miles, your heads need new valve guides, undoutedly, in the near future, but that is a top-end job/limited rebuild ... nowhere near $8.5K, especially if you do something like bore your cylinders out to 85.0 mm and put in a set of JE 9.5:1 forged pistons with valve reliefs. Put in a set of Solex cams ... many, many miles of fun for a $5K - $6K freshen-up job!

Change out your ball cup, shift rod, and coupler bushings, then your gear oil in the 915 with Valvoline 85W-140 gear oil a couple of times over 500 - 1000 miles of driving after fixing the carbs and oil leaks, and then tell us how the 915 feels.

[daddygo]

Early_S_Man

Thanks for your thoughts... I've decided to have the local shop rebuild the transmission, shop for a decent used 3.0 to put in while I learn to rebulid the original 2.7 as you suggested. That way I'm up and running and can take my time to do it right. I'm sure I can pass along the used 3.0 at a later time to another Pelicanite in need.

Thanks to all for the input!

[Henry Schmidt]

Originally posted by daddygo
Nope... Henry starts at $8500 for a no frills engine rebuild and goes up from there. I'm positive that his work is great, but it is expensive as well.

I would agrees that we are not cheap (quality rarely is) but to say "no frills" wow what does that mean?
I would guess a DIY engine built to these standards would cost as much or more.

[daddygo]

Henry, no frills translated to:

reuse to old pistons and cylinders - if possible ($8500 didn't cover new pistons and cylinders but did include new rings)
Reuse the old cams ($8500 didn't include new cams)
No rebuild of the distributor
No rebuild of the carbs

... to get the frills (new pistons, new cams, new carbs, etc...), the price jumps up to $15K. Henry, your work looks phenomenal and your reputation is spotless. I'm not questioning your value as a quality operation, I'm just trying to rationalize $15K for the engine, plus $2K for the tranny, plus $5K for paint, plus $2K for interior for a total of $24K (not including the original cost of the vehicle)...for a car that's only worth $20K in prime condition on the market.

The answer I was hoping for was, "wow, if you get a Supertec rebuilt engine and cover the other refresh tasks, your car would be worth more than the sum of the rebuilding costs... but that's not the case.

Since I'm new to the Porsche world, this is a learning curve I'm going through... and it's different from other european rebuild projects I've undertaken. I've rebuilt other makes of cars with the help of quality craftsman like you and came out with a more valuable car than the sum of my investment. It doesn't look like that dynamic works the same way in the Porsche world. At least not by rebuilding the original engine.

In the meantime, if anyone asks me for a recommendation on a quality rebuilder, from what I understand you're at the top of the list. If they ask me if its worth it to rebuild, my answer is no if you're looking to recoup the value, but maybe if your value proposition is in the prestige of the show, than go for it.

[Henry Schmidt]

Thank you for the kind words.

The escalation from $8500 to $15,000 may be based on unnecessary upgrades.

Your car with a stock overhaul and new paint would probably be valued higher than you think.

My wife recently sold her 1970 911 T (driver with stock fresh engine, 12 year old paint, marginal interior) for $22,500 to a broker who resold it on the phone while we completed to deal. Most people think that a 73 911 T would be valued higher than a 70 T.

That said, I would never recommend that an owner rebuild the engine in his car just to sell it. The numbers don't generally work out.
But if you plan to drive the car the price of the engine is less than the depreciation in 1 year on a new car.

If you like your Porsche and want to drive it, make it nice. Other wise, sell it to someone who will.

BTW: In general, few cars are worth the restoration costs.

[jjrowe]

These cars are very expensive to rebuild, and I agree with Henry that to do it yourself the right way will probably cost as much as he charges. The main question you need to ask yourself is:

"Is this my dream car" if there is anything you don't like about the car, sell it and buy a different one before you spend the money. There are lots of cars around, don't throw money into this one because it fell in your lap. The money you save because you got a "deal" is nothing once you start restoring the car. Personally, with the rust and paint issues that you mentioned I would start with something cleaner before restoring it. Buy a used engine for this one and drive it for a few years. However if you love this car and are committed to a long relationship then fix it right and enjoy it.

Jesse
76 911s