Pelican Parts Forums - An Oil Additive that is worth using

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- - An Oil Additive that is worth using (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/307730-oil-additive-worth-using.html)

Yes, Steve W. has posted on that on Rennlist if not here. Modern oils are generally better except for that. Search for zinc and you'll find several threads on these bbs's. M1 has enough zinc.

David, P AG put out a TSB that lists Mobil One and gives multi-wt. specs. -- it replaces the spec in the older manuals.

searching on oil + tsb should pop it up.

I'd use 5W30 or 0W30 for where you are; or 5W40 or 5W50 -- all will be fine for the Carolinas.

Hmm, I'll have to search for the Valvoline VR-1. Is it sold in the usual places or will I be on a treasure hunt?

I've used Rotella T in my other cars and I know it is a well thought of oil. They have both synthetic and non-synthetic versions but the Shell website doesn't list any ZDDP levels on their website. The non-synthetic is 15W40 and the synthetic is 5W40. The synthetic sounds like it might be little light for a 911.

According to the Oil Results PDF posted earlier the ZDDP levels are as follows....

Rotella T Synthetic 5W40 1552ppm Zinc 1397ppm Phosphorus

Rotella T Non-Synthetic 15W40 1555ppm Zinc 1278ppm Phosphorus

Are these levels high enough to be considered a decent early car oil? The price is right for the Rotella...I'm just not sure what an extra 100ppm (ie Amsoil Race Oil) is going to do for my car.

Quote:

Originally posted by BlueSideUp
Hmm, I'll have to search for the Valvoline VR-1. Is it sold in the usual places or will I be on a treasure hunt?

According to the Oil Results PDF posted earlier the ZDDP levels are as follows....

Rotella T Synthetic 5W40 1552ppm Zinc 1397ppm Phosphorus

Rotella T Non-Synthetic 15W40 1555ppm Zinc 1278ppm Phosphorus

Are these levels high enough to be considered a decent early car oil? The price is right for the Rotella...I'm just not sure what an extra 100ppm (ie Amsoil Race Oil) is going to do for my car.

VR-1 should be at the "usual suspects".

Any thoughts on Chevron Delo 400?

Per lnengineering.com:

Chevron Delo 400 15w40 1622 ppm phosphorus 1191 ppm zinc

I have to change my oil soon. I would like to take all this good information and put it to work. The Valvoline VR1 sounds fine for me but maybe it needs a bit more "Zn" and "P" to top it up to the 14% recommended by Charles (see Charles table). I tried this:

Qo= quantity of oil
Qa= quantity of additive
Oppm = The part per million of Zn or P in the oil
Appm = The parts per million of Zn/P in the additive.

Using the VR1 as an example, if I want to change all my oil and top up to approx. 14% P and Zn with the GM EOS stuff mentioned I could use this formula

Qa= Qo ( 1400 - Oppm) / (Appn - 1400) * 32

If Qo is 9 quarts and the Oppm is 1085 (I took the lesser of the Zn and P reading from Charles' work) and the approximate Appm is 6000 for the GM EOS additive then I need about 19 1/2 oz. of the GM additive. I dont think the above formula works well when the balance of Zn and P are remarkably different in the Oil or the Additive but maybe its OK for most "high quality" oils. Please let me know if this is way off. Thanks.

A good additive that brings up all critical antiwear compounds is Torco's MPZ. I can't find red bottle STP any more locally (in Calif.) but MPZ is available from Torco. Check it out for yourself...

A better (cheaper) source of Zn and P is Diesel Service's Oil Extender. It has over 6000 ppm of both, and is about 50% cheaper than GM EOS. It's a shame the Red bottle STP is going the way of the dodo, it was the cheapest source of Zn and P.

To me, I would just use something that has 1200 ppm of both Zn and P. That's the cheapest way to get the needed protection.

I tried to find Diesel Service's Oil Extender. Nobody seems to carry it, not even on line. Puzzling isn't it?

I can get it at the local Farm and Fleet. Outside of there, I've only seen it at truck stops.

Quote:

Originally posted by movin
I tried to find Diesel Service's Oil Extender. Nobody seems to carry it, not even on line. Puzzling isn't it?

[/puzzle]
http://www.powerservice.com/diesellube_oilextender.asp

If you can find it, I like using their oil extender to top off any oil consumption (or leaks). It has an extremely high TBN, actually the highest of any product I tested. Once I use up the million individual quarts of oil I have from my testing, I'm just going to use Diesel Lube Oil Extender for top offs. The only case I can see where this might hurt is on cars with elaborate emissions control devices, where the Zn and P may reduce their longevity and effectiveness.

I just saw the Diesel Oil Extender at Wal-Mart and almost bought it, but the package did not list Zinc or PH so I held off. They had the large container in the clearance section at a good price - only had a few containers left last wekend - I need to get by there and buy those if they are not already gone!!

It has the highest level of Zn and P of any product I tested. Go for it!

Yes, I know this is a cross-post, but I thought it was worth bringing up. Posted originally on rennlist:

"I actually just got back today from analysis some back to back tests on castrol gtx (and brad penn racing 20w50 & royal purple 20w50 max cycle for comparison). With 800 controled miles on each sample with a complete oil system flush and new filter, previous oils should not have contaminated the results as best as we could test. Engine was a 185hp 2.3L Porsche 914 engine with no external oil cooling, 4.5 qt oil capacity.

In 800 mi, Castol GTX's tbn dropped from 7.57 to 5.61, down 26%. Viscosity was low for a 20w50, but still higher than SAE 30wt. Starting Zn levels dropped by 30%. P levels dropped by 12.2%. (note that the Zn dropped faster than the P, which leads me back to think that the lowered P levels aren't as critical as the Zn in VR-1). Levels of Moly dropped by a whopping 70%.

I was very suprised to say the least. That said I don't think I'll recommend to my customers going more than 3000 mi on Castrol GTX.

In comparison, Brad Penn Racing 20w50 although starting with less Zn and P than GTX, retained more of it. The level of P was unchanged, and Zn dropped only 10%. Levels of magnesium and sodium (a characteristic of the pennsylvania crude and why it works so well) only dropped about 20%. Levels of iron, copper, and aluminum were about 50% lower. Viscosity even remained in spec for 20w50.

The Royal Purple retained the highest viscosity of the bunch, even after 800 mi it was thicker at temp than either of the other oils new. Zn and P levels were the highest, P remaining unafffected and Zn falling by 19%, but still remaining above the levels found in a virgin sample of m1 15w50. TBN also remained unaffected.

On another engine I sampled, a 170hp 1883cc Porsche 356 engine, with ~3000 mi the Royal Purple used in that engine, exposed to almost constant 230-240F oil temps, the TBN dropped only to 6.93 from the 8.5ish starting point, and retained it's viscosity in spec for a 20w50. Again, only about 4 qt capacity here. Zn and P levels too remained above the levels most oils start with.

Our samples of m1 and amsoil were contaminated and could not be testd unfortuneatly. The RP had about equal levels of aluminum and copper in it as the Brad Penn, and had iron levels just between the Castrol and Brad Penn.

I have some more results to mull over, but I summed them over for the most part."

Now I wish I would have tested VR-1 too!

Also, just before someone asks, since there was some discussion about this on another thread, the new CJ-4 standard calls for the reduction of phosphorus to 1000ppm, but does not affect the levels of Zn as far as I know... meaning that the new Rotella T 15w40 should work just as well as the old CI-4 Rotella. My tests above showed that the P was reduced at a much lower rate than the Zn, so it's probably ok to have a little less in there anyways. That said, VR-1 is probably fine even without EOS too by that same line of reasoning!

Quote:

Originally posted by cnavarro
....In 800 mi, Castol GTX's tbn dropped from 7.57 to 5.61, down 26%. Viscosity was low for a 20w50, but still higher than SAE 30wt. Starting Zn levels dropped by 30%. P levels dropped by 12.2%. (note that the Zn dropped faster than the P, which leads me back to think that the lowered P levels aren't as critical as the Zn in VR-1). Levels of Moly dropped by a whopping 70%.
....

In comparison, Brad Penn Racing 20w50 although starting with less Zn and P than GTX, retained more of it. The level of P was unchanged, and Zn dropped only 10%. Levels of magnesium and sodium (a characteristic of the pennsylvania crude and why it works so well) only dropped about 20%. Levels of iron, copper, and aluminum were about 50% lower. Viscosity even remained in spec for 20w50.

The Royal Purple retained the highest viscosity of the bunch, even after 800 mi it was thicker at temp than either of the other oils new. Zn and P levels were the highest, P remaining unafffected and Zn falling by 19%, but still remaining above the levels found in a virgin sample of m1 15w50. TBN also remained unaffected.

On another engine I sampled, a 170hp 1883cc Porsche 356 engine, with ~3000 mi the Royal Purple used in that engine, exposed to almost constant 230-240F oil temps, the TBN dropped only to 6.93 from the 8.5ish starting point, and retained it's viscosity in spec for a 20w50. Again, only about 4 qt capacity here. Zn and P levels too remained above the levels most oils start with.

....

Also, just before someone asks, since there was some discussion about this on another thread, the new CJ-4 standard calls for the reduction of phosphorus to 1000ppm, but does not affect the levels of Zn as far as I know... meaning that the new Rotella T 15w40 should work just as well as the old CI-4 Rotella. My tests above showed that the P was reduced at a much lower rate than the Zn, so it's probably ok to have a little less in there anyways. That said, VR-1 is probably fine even without EOS too by that same line of reasoning!

Interesting.

I wonder if the dropping levels of Zn nd P are good or bad. To one way of thinking, if the levels are dropping then they are plating out in the parts (a good thing) or getting filtered out (a bad thing. If "consuming" the elements is a good thing, then for the oils where the levels are constant, maybe they are in a form that are not helping the engine.

On the other hand, maybe it is these elements in suspension that creates the benefits.

Any thoughts?

Any chemists out there to tell us what happens to the Zinc when it reacts with metals?

This site ( http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motoroil.html has a bit more info. on what happens to the Zinc as it gets used up...

"% ZINC
Percent zinc is the amount of zinc used as an extreme pressure, anti-wear additive. The zinc is only used when there is actual metal to metal contact in the engine. Hopefully the oil will do its job and this will rarely occur, but if it does, the zinc compounds react with the metal to prevent scuffing and wear. A level of 0.11% is enough to protect an automobile engine for the extended oil drain interval under normal use. Those of you with high revving, air cooled motorcycles or turbocharged cars or bikes might want to look at the oils with the higher zinc content. More doesn't give you better protection; it gives you longer protection if the rate of metal to metal contact is abnormally high. High zinc content can lead to deposit formation and plug fouling. "

There are several different types of ZDTP compounds that are used for antiwear agents. The ones that have been approved by the API are not gonna harm any of the yellow metal alloys the way the older technology could have.

Randy, PM me your shipping address and I will get you some of the good stuff for gratas.

I am not an oil engineer, but since I read Bruce Anderson series of books over 5 years ago I have been useing Kendal GT-1. I am now
finishing the top end of an 87 3.2 Carrera and "while In There" checked
timing chains cylinders and jugs, rod bearings and found no wear at 89,000 miles. I have had new valves, guides and springs installed,
along with stem seals. Cam, rockers all looked excellent. I'm thinking about putting it back together and continueing with Kendal 20-50. Am
I nuts or should I "Fortify" with an additonal additive???
Thanks
Keith Epperly
87 slant nose turbolook carrera cabriolet

Hi Keith:

I've used Kendall GT-1 since the mid-70's in RSR's, 935's, & many street cars but today's version is NOT what it used to be.

I would be either using an oil with higher values of Zn & P or an additive that contains those elements.

I'm hoping that Mike (Lubemaster) has a product to offer that will do the job,....:)