Thanks Knap. That first article is interesting ( http://www.apmaths.uwo.ca/~mmuser/Papers/TL05.pdf )

Just a few questions. Charles mentioned that Zinc gets used up over time. I still dont understand where the Zinc goes? Maybe I should'nt really care (other than to buy and oil with "enouph" and change it at reasonable interavals) but I cant let this one go...sorry.

The article suggests that ZDDP turns into zinc phosphate under temperature / sliding action / pressure. Zinc phosphate is the material that is the basis for the anti-wear film. So, once a the Zinc becomes Zinc phosphate has it been "used up". If that is how it is used up then does the zinc phosphate continue to be useful as the basis for a the anti-wear film in "later runs" or does the process need more ZDDP as raw material for new zinc phoshpate?

OK, I just skimmed thru this thread, and I thought I'd add some more fuel to the fire. This is a cut and paste from our local PCA region forum, but it was a repost from a Brit car site. According to this, Redline gets very high marks. Here's the article (I have to split it into two posts):

OIL IS KILLING OUR CARS!!!!!

By: Keith Ansell, Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.

About a year ago I read about the reduction of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP)
in the oils supplied with API approval that could affect sliding and high
pressure (EP) friction in our cars. The reduction of these chemicals in
supplied oil was based on the fact that zinc, manganese and/or phosphates
reduce the effectiveness and eventually damage catalytic converters and
introduce minute amounts of pollutants into our atmosphere.

A month or so ago I had a member of the Columbia Gorge MG Club bring a
totally failed camshaft and lifters back to me that had only 900 miles on
them!! I immediately contacted the camshaft re-grinder and asked how this
could happen. They were well aware of this problem as they were starting to
have many failures of this type. In the past, the lack of a molybdenum
disulfide camshaft assembly lubricant, at assembly, was about the only thing
that could create this type of problem. My customer has assembled many
engines and had lubricated the camshaft properly and followed correct break
in procedures.

This got me on the phone to Delta Camshaft, one of our major suppliers. Then
the bad news came out: It's today's "modern" API (American Petroleum
Industry) approved oils that are killing our engines.

Next call: To another major camshaft supplier, both stock and performance
(Crane). They now have an additive for whatever oil you are using during
break-in so that the camshaft and lifters won't fail in an unreasonably
short period of time. They also suggest using a diesel rated oil on flat
tappet engines.

Next call: To a racing oil manufacturer that we use for the race cars
(Redline). Their response: "We are well aware of the problem and we still
use the correct amounts of those additives in our products". They continued
to tell me they are not producing API approved oils so they don't have to
test and comply. Their oils were NOT the "new, improved and approved" ones
that destroy flat tappet engines! "We just build the best lubricants
possible". Sounds stupid, doesn't it, New-Approved but inferior products,
but it seems to be true for our cars.

To top this off: Our representative from a major supplier of performance and
street engine parts (EPWI) stopped by to "warn us" of the problem of the NEW
oils on flat tappet engines. This was a call that the representative was
making only because of this problem to warn their engine builders! "The
reduction of the zinc, manganese and phosphates are causing very early
destruction of cams and followers". They are recommending that, for now at
least, there must be a proper oil additive put in the first oil used on new
engines, beyond the liberal use of molydisulfide assembly lube. They have
been told that the first oil is the time the additives are needed but remain
skeptical that the first change is all that is necessary. Their statement:
Use diesel rated oils such as Delo or Rotella that are usually available at
auto stores and gas stations.

This problem is BIG! American Engine Rebuilder's Association (AERA) Bulletin
#TB2333 directly addresses this problem. I had a short discussion with their
engineer and he agreed with all that I had been finding.

Next phone call was to a retired engineer from Clevite, a major bearing and
component manufacturer. First surprise was that he restored older British
Motor bikes. The second surprise was that he was "VERY" aware of this
problem because many of the old bikes had rectangular tappets that couldn't
rotate and are having a very large problem with the new oils. He has written
an article for the British Bike community that verify all the "bad news" we
have been finding.

Comp Cams put out "#225 Tech Bulletin: Flat Tappet Camshafts". They have
both an assembly lube and an oil additive. The telling sentence in the
bulletin was "While this additive was originally developed specifically for
break-in protection, subsequent testing has proven the durability benefits
of its long term use. This special blend of additives promotes proper
break-in and protects against premature cam and lifter failure by replacing
some of the beneficial ingredients that the oil companies have been required
to remove from the off the-shelf oil".

Next question: Now what do we do?

From the camshaft re-grinders (DeltaCam) "Use oils rated for diesel use",
Delo (Standard Oil product) was named. About the same price as other quality
petroleum based oils. They are not API formulated and have the zinc
dithiophosphate we need in weights we are familiar with.

From the camshaft manufacturer (Crane): "use our additive" for at least the
first 500 miles.

From General Motors (Chevrolet): add EOS, their oil fortifier, to your oil,
it's only about $12.00 for each oil change for an 8 ounce can (This problem
seems to be something GM has known about for some time!).

From Redline Oil: Use our street formulated synthetics. They have what we
need!

From our major oil distributor: Distributing Castro, Redline, Valvoline and
Industrial oils: "After over a week of contacts we have verified that the
major oil companies are aware of the problem". "The representatives of the
oil companies today are only aware of marketing programs and have no
knowledge of formulation". The only major oil companies they were aware of
for doing anything to address this are Valvoline that is offering an "Off
Road 20W-50" and Redline.

From Castrol: We are beginning to see a pattern emerging on older cars. It
may be advantageous to use a non-approved lubricant, such as oils that are
Diesel rated, 4 Cycle Motorcycle oils and other specified diesel oils.

Last question: So what are we at Foreign Parts Positively going to do? After
much research we are switching to Redline Street rated oils and stocking the
Castrol products that are diesel rated. Castrol, owned by British Petroleum,
is now just a brand name. This is a difficult decision as we have been a
dealer and great believer in all Castrol Products for over 40 years. We have
been using Castrol Syntech oil in new engines for about 3 years so the cost
difference in changing to Redline is minimal. The actual cost in operation
is also less as the additive package in Redline makes a 1-year or up to
18,000 mile change recommended! Yes, it is a long change interval but with
lowered sulfur levels and the elimination of lead and many other chemicals
in the fuels there are less contaminants in our oil from the fuel, which is
the major contributor to oil degradation. We will continue to offer the
Castrol products but will now only stock the suggested diesel oils that they
produce.

Too many things are starting to show up on this subject and it has cost us
money and time. Be aware that "New and Improved", or even products we have
been using for many years, are destroying our cars as it isn't the same
stuff we were getting even a year ago.

For the cars that use "engine oil" in their gearboxes this may even pose a
problem as these additives that have been removed could be very critical in
gear wear. We will be using oil specifically formulated for Manual Gearboxes
with Brass Synchronizers. The only oils we are aware of that fit the
criteria are from General Motors and Redline.

If you have any additional input let us know. We need to let every flat
tappet engine owner, i.e.: every British Car owner know that things are
changing and we MUST meet the challenge.

Keith Ansell, President
Foreign Parts Positively, Inc.
www.ForeignPartsPos <http://www.ForeignPartsPositively.com> itively.com
360-882-3596

***************************

More:

At this time, late October 2006, it appears that our old staple, Castrol,
has reduced the ZDDP in GTX to about half what it used to be. The safest bet
right now seems to be either the use of Redline (synthetic) or Valvoline
VR1. Today I purchased 7 quarts of Valvoline VR1 20W-50 at AutoZone for
$2.79/quart.

*******************************

More from Keith Ansell:


Oil is Killing our cars Part II

Last month's report on this subject is turning out to be just the tip of the
iceberg! Many publications have had this subject of
zinc-dialkyl-dithiophosphate (ZDDP) covered in varying depths over the last
few months. Some publications have even had conflicting stories when you
compare one month's article with their next month's article! They are all
ending up supporting our report.

I have had the good fortune to have the ear of quite a few leaders in the
industry including some wonderful input from Castrol. We have been very
reluctant to "dump" Castrol, as it has been such a great supporter of our
cars and industry over the years. Castrol hasn't really abandoned our cars,
just shifted to a more mass marketing mode. Many Castrol products are not
appropriate for our cars today, some still are.

Now for the latest report:
#1 Castrol GTX 20W-50 is still good for our cars after break-in! 10W-40,
10W-30 and other grades are NOT good. Absolute NOT GOOD for any oil (Any
Brand) that is marked "Energy Conserving" in the API "Donut" on the bottle,
these oils are so low with ZDDP or other additives that they will destroy
our cams. Virtually all "Diesel" rated oils are acceptable.
#2 Castrol HD 30 is a very good oil for break-in of new motors. This oil has
one of the largest concentrations of ZDDP and Moly to conserve our cams and
tappets.
#3 Only an unusual Castrol Syntec 20W-50 approaches the levels of protection
we need when we look to the better synthetic lubricants. We are attempting
to get this oil but will be using Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 as these are
lighter weights for better performance, flow volume, less drag and has the
additive package we need.
#4 The trend today is to lighter weight oils to decrease drag, which
increases mileage. Most of these seem to be the "Energy Conservation" oils
that we cannot use.
#5 Redline oil and others are suggesting a 3,000-mile break-in for new
engines! Proper seating of rings, with today's lubricants is taking that
long to properly seal. Shifting to synthetics before that time will just
burn a lot of oil and not run as well as hoped.
#6 The "Energy Conservation" trend was first lead by automakers to increase
mileage numbers and secondly because the ZDDP and other chemicals degrade
the catalytic converter after extended miles, increasing pollution. We don't
have catalytic converters and the mileage gains are not that significant for
most of us.

For you science buffs: ZDDP is a single polar molecule that is attracted to
Iron based metals. The one polar end tends to "Stand" the molecule up on the
metal surface that it is bonded to by heat and friction. This forms a
sacrificial layer to protect the base metal of the cam and tappet from
contacting each other. Only at very high pressures on a flat tappet cam is
this necessary because the oil is squeezed/wiped from the surface. This high
pressure is also present on the gudgeon pin (wrist pin) in diesel engines,
therefore the need for ZDDP in diesel engines.
Second part of the equation is Molybdenum disulfide (Moly). The moly bonds
to the zinc adding an additional, very slippery, sacrificial layer to the
metal. I found out that too much of the moly will create problems; lack of
this material reduces the effectiveness of the ZDDP. The percentage, by
weight is from .01 to .02%, not much, but necessary.

Latest conclusions: Running our older, broken in engines on Castrol 20W-50
GTX is ok.
Break in a new engine for 3,000 miles on HD 30 Castrol.
New engines (after break-in) and fairly low mileage engines will do best
with the Redline 10W-40 or 10W-30 synthetic.

We'll keep you apprised of any new findings! Happy motoring for now

To understand the potential problem, consider the fate of one of the most common additives, zinc dialkyl dithiophosphate (ZDDP), an antiwear and antioxidant additive. Depending on formulation, a common AW hydraulic fluid may contain anywhere from 100 ppm to 500 ppm of ZDDP, as measured by the elemental concentrations of zinc and phosphorus. Subjecting an oil containing ZDDP to high temperatures and high levels of moisture will likely result in significant additive depletion due to hydrolysis - a chemical reaction between the ZDDP molecule and water. Under such circumstances, the ultimate by-products of the hydrolysis reaction will likely be zinc salts and phosphates, which although no longer chemically ZDDP, may remain in solution in the oil. The result is that by considering only zinc and phosphorus concentrations, the difference between “good” zinc and phosphorus in the form of ZDDP and “bad” zinc and phosphorus from reaction by-products will be next to impossible to determine.

http://www.practicingoilanalysis.com/article_detail.asp?articleid=477&relatedbookgroup= Lubrication

Bike oils tend to be high in ZDDP shear stable and expensive but a good comparison
http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/mc_oils_white_paper_g2156.pdf
Race oils also tend to use high ZDDP and if synth a higher % of esters, PAO not being the best boundary oil. Not only is Mobil possible using g3 oils but uses AN rather than esters.

Killing our cars ??

I am a tech ignorant, but I have pretty good experience working on a scientific basis. Often, a theoretical point is not very valid in real life. A single factor taking out of context of a thousand other factors makes it look important.

So, I have to ask, in practice - will it make a significant difference on the remaining mileage I anticipate on my 22 years old Carrera before a rebuild if I choose one or the other of any modern oil ? As long as I change it with sensible intervals.

Just wanted to know - before I start panicking..;)

Markus,

There is a post here or at Rennlist from Steve Weiner who has noted a sudden increase in Cam Pitting since the Zn and P has been reduced. He noted that in the past, Cams would outlast just about everything else in the car.

So I guess the short answer is, yes, this is not just theoretical.

Now over in Sweden you may not have the same issues we have in the states so you will need to do some more research on that aspect.

"Oil is Killing our cars"

SG - Introduced 1989 has much more active dispersant to combat black sludge.

SH - Introduced 1993 has same engine tests as SG, but includes phosphorus limit 0.12%, together with control of foam, volatility and shear stability.

SJ - Introduced 1996 has the same engine tests as SG/SH, but phosphorus limit 0.10% together with variation on volatility limits

SL - Introduced 2001, all new engine tests reflective of modern engine designs meeting current emmissions standards

Unless the problem arose from 1996 onwards the issue should only relate to current SM energy conserving oils


Typical replies from oil companies does also indicate a reluctance to recommend these SM oils

Pennzoil has marketed, for a number of years, a "Pennzoil Racing Motor Oil" that would be suitable to use in older vehicles or high performance engines that incorporate high lift cams with high tension valve springs. The Pennzoil Racing Motor Oil is available in the SAE 25W-50, 50, and 60 weight. The product part number is 3623, 3589, and 3599 respectively. Given the part number, any retail outlet that carries Pennzoil products, can obtain this oil. This formulation contains nearly three times as much zinc as most commercially available API "SM" motor oils in the market. I would recommend using this formulation, for truly high performance engines, over the heavy -duty diesel engine oils because this oil has approximately 50% more zinc than most API "CI-4" quality diesel engine oils.

Best Regards,
Technical Service


The Red Line oils continue to offer very good
protection, we will not reduce those critical levels.

Thank you for contacting Castrol North America.

The GTX Line has a zinc level of 0.075%.

As indicated on our product packaging, the current engine oil category API SM/ILSAC GF-4 is fully backwards compatible or ‘back serviceable’ and has been extensively tested. Valve train issues are not anticipated with the use of modern engine oil in older cars of OEM stock configuration. In fact, current SM/GF-4 engine oils are subjected to testing that is far more intensive than engine oils of previous API/ILSAC categories.

To clarify, in general, ZDDP levels have been reduced a small amount in the current category engine oils (API SM/ILSAC GF-4) in compliance with industry regulations that set maximum levels of Sulphur and Phosphorus, but are still at levels that provide ample engine protection.

BP
Anyhow, engines such as yours that use flat tappets could be sensitive to reduced levels of Phosphorous in oil formulations, it appears that 0.1% is about the cut off point, so oils for flat tappets should contain >.1%.

Phos has been steadily going down as the amount of ZDDP has been reduced to ensure compatibility with exhaust after treatment

The SM only applies to some 05 and up vehicles.
RP feels so strongly about the superior antiwear of the SL that we will
offer warranty on a 2006 vehicle using the RP SL appropriate oil if the oil
is the cause of a failure and the OEM denies warranty based on using an SL
rated oil.

Happy Holidays.

David

David Canitz
Tech Services Manager
Royal Purple Ltd
1 Royal Purple Lane
Porter, TX 77365
281-354-8600 x202
281-354-7335 fax
713-725-7207 cell
dcanitz@royalpurple.com

Thanks Harry!

You mean the oil products can contain different levels of ingredients in different countries, despite exactly the same label and viscosity ?

For the " I want to get it anywhere" group. The easiest
oil to find is the Rottela-t 15-40w at $54.00 for 6 gallons
at Sam's. Is this an acceptable solution or are we forced into the $8.00 a qt. Redline. I change my oil four times a years without regard to mileage (14,000 miles in six years). Can I sleep at
night With Rottela-t in the car, or should I start saving for new parts again since I'm just finishing a top end job.

Keith Epperly
87 slant nose turbo look carrera cabriolet

Rotella-T or Delo are both excellent from what I have researched. Steve Weiner said they are both fine, but he prefers Valvoline VR-1 20w50 when going dino oil. Yes you should sleep very well with Rotella T!:)

Keith,

Why on earth are you changing your oil so frequently? 14,000 miles in 6 years is about 2,300 miles per year. Once a year is more than enough if you drive less than 3,000 miles/year.

Do you have some other special circumstance driving this need to change your oil every 5-600 miles?.

I take "short Trips?" and class my use as severe duty?? Besides
it makes my neighbors drool to see me working on it. Oil is cheap
when it comes to the "THE CAR I ALWAYS WANTED"! I,m 56 and
don't think the Mrs will ever go for me getting another one. If
I should leave it in longer I might cut back to a spring and fall
changes, with Rotella-T that would be $54.00 a year plus $20.00 for filters and $1.00 for aluminum crush washers. Then there's the pesky $6.00 for the Bosch cu plugs, $78.00 for tags and registration, nearly $500.00 per year "JUST FOR INSURANCE" where will the expenses end!

Keith Epperly
87 slant nose turbo look carrera cabriolet

Keith,

Do as you wish but I still think that once a year or 3,000 miles is more than enough.

Well. Here I was sitting fat and happy in my long-term choice of Castrol GTX for older cars.
from http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html ... but wait!

Just a few posts above this one, there's a quote from a Castrol rep
So ... they have apparently changed the formulation since Charles did his tests.

Bummer. Now I have to choose something different.

Maybe I'll just try Mobil 1 again. I had leakage problems with old engines in the past, but that was many years back.

No, they didn't say which GTX they were referring to. I also tested GTX high mileage and it too had equal levels of Zn and P. They were probably referring to oils bearing an api starburst/energy conserving logo, which those viscosities do conform to the api's mandate for lower Zn and P levels. You just have to read between the lines since there is lots of conflicting data. I have all the bottles I sampled from, and the GTX bottle says API service SM.

So my pals, it appears that any oil shown to meet API SM standards and includes the words "energy conserving" is, by defintion, bad and to be avoided.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1171237361.gif http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1171237376.gif

corrected per Charles' note below

SM, and energy conserving. There are many oils that bear an SM but have sufficient Zn and P. Going by the label doesn't guarantee Zn and P levels. I just looked at a few of the bottles I tested, and some that were SM had good levels, where yet an older SL designation that should have had the right levels was the lowest I tested of any old (an aforementioned Pennzoil product). That is the main reason I tested oils and posted the results, because you can't get a straight answer from anyone and lots of the "trusted sources" and opinions are both conflicting. I'll plan on adding to the table what standard each oil has on the bottle, to solve the confusion as far as what standard each was compliant to when bottled. If there is anything else you guys think I need to address or clarify, let me know.

Charles, I stand corrected. So it is SM and Energy conserving that are the warning signs. Previous post corrected as well.

I also looked at all the bottles, and none I had said certified for gasoline engines.

Penrite guide for older cars
http://www.penrite.com.au/files/9R5QGO28DX/85_ZINC_%20DIESEL_OILS_AND_API.pdf

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/oil_summary.html
From Castrrol
From our range the following are higher than 0.1%

Castrol GTX Diesel 15W-40 (CI4,CH4,CG4,CF4,CF,SL)
Castrol GTX High Mileage 20W-50 (SL,SM)
Castrol GTX 20W-50 (SL,SM)
Castrol HD 30 (SL,SM)
Castrol HD 40 (SL,SM)
Castrol Syntec Blend Truck 15W-40 (CI4,CH4,CG4,CF4,CF,SL)(Semi-synthetic)
Castrol Tection Extra 15W-40 (CI4Plus, CI4,CH4,CG4,CF4,SL)
Castrol Hypuron S 15W-40 (CI4Plus,CH4,CG4,SL)(Semi-synthetic)
Castrol Syntec 5W-40 (SL,CF)(Synthetic)
Castrol GO! 10W-40 Motorcycle Oil (SG)
Castrol GO! 20W-50 Motorcycle Oil (SG)
Castrol Grand Prix 4-Stroke Motorcycle Oil 10W-40 (SG)
Castrol Grand Prix 4-Stroke Motorcycle Oil 20W-50 (SG)
Castrol TWS Motorsport 10W-60 (SJ)(Synthetic)