Need advice for reinstalling Cv joints to trans

Okay 911 engine drop made easy this has not been,
the lastest and last problem is the Cv joints are at an angle to the trans mounts and I can't get the hex bolts in for fear of stripping them, I have taken the ball bearings out of the Cvs and reistalled them but the CVs on the rear axels will not move at all. i have tried lowering the car to have the weight of the wheel to straighten the axels so the CVs are flush against the trans shafts but they are still at an angle
and not flush
should the Cv joints move ?Its as if they are jammed into position,

Any other tips appreciated.

Jeff
78SC

Jeff,

A couple of questions just for clarification ...

When you reassembled the CV's off the car, and put them back on the axles, were the CV's free to move in any direction, up to about a 30-45 degree angle? Have you ever seen the pics and procedures for CV's in an air-cooled VW Bentley manual, or is one available locally ... maybe at the public library?

If the joints were NOT free and 'limber' to move in every which way after reassembly, then they are incorrectly assembled, and need to be redone!

Along with a Bentley VW manual, the following instructions might be of use to reassemble the CV's:


There are four 'orientations' that are important:

#1: CV-joint outer-race body to drive flange,

#2: CV-joint inner-race body to axle,

#3: 'star' orientation from the perspective of inner/outer body, and

#4: cage orientation to inner-outer races.

The #1 orientation is easy, because of the pattern left by the gaskets. #2 is also easy, because of the wear pattern where the circlip wear pattern. #3 Outer race and inner race orientation is the 'star' pattern relationship depicted in the VW manual by the wide 'a' gap to narrow 'b' gap. #4 is also depicted in the VW manual, even if there is not a specified 'c' or 'd' distance! The cage does indeed have wide and narrow gaps, but the pics in the VW manual are good enough that they don't have to be marked! Call the narrow gap on the cage dimension 'c' and the wide one dimension 'd' ... in the VW diagram that has the a & b labels for the gaps, you can see that the wide 'd' gap on the cage goes next to the narrow 'b gap on the inner race and the wide 'a' gap on the outer race. So, the assembly order in your hand is narrow 'b' inner race, wide 'd' cage, and wide 'a' outer race. Instead of two narrow and four wide gaps on the cages, I am pretty sure it is three of each, alternating, just like on the races. If you mark a 'd' in the exact center of the a-b diagram, on the cage, and a 'c' right above it at the slightly more narrow gap on the cage, it will make things more clear.

You may want to print this out so you have it for handy reference, along with the VW manual page with the a-b-c-d diagram.

I find a clear dining table with newspapers spread over it makes a good place for reassembling and greasing CV-joints.

Good luck!!!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa


[This message has been edited by Early_S_Man (edited 09-02-2000).]

Warren a good point
If you think you do have it assembled correctly, and you just need to get a few more degrees of angle for those stubs then try this...
Loosen rear lugs--put rear car on stands at torsion tubes--take rear tires off--maybe even undo the lower shock bolts....put jack under semi trailing arm your axle stub is attached to...jack it up till you get the angle....turn the wheel-less hub to line the
mount holes up
!!!did this Yesterday!!
Luck......S

I'll print this and use it too. It's time for my first CV repack.

Warren you do this regularly I think and I was wondering if you re-use the old boots at times. They are $20 or so apiece for my car. If so, can you get the clamps without buying the boots? Also, is one tube of grease really enough? I've always pretty much filled them without bulging.

Jryerson, I know they can bind at times when you try to change their angle. They slide in and out, and this action helps when trying to change their angle. But if they're not assembled properly then don't force 'em using jacks and stuff.

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'83 SC

Thanks Guys

Warren, they sort of fell apart after taking them off the tranny flangs, so I put them back together the best I could on the axel shaft, they will not move at all its like they are locked so I must have put them back wrong but I really could not see any particular way they went

So whats best is to assemble them together off the car then put them on the axel shafts?

Thanks

jeff

Thanks Guys

Warren, they sort of fell apart after taking them off the tranny flangs, so I put them back together the best I could on the axel shaft, they will not move at all its like they are locked so I must have put them back wrong but I really could not see any particular way they went

So whats best is to assemble them together off the car then put them on the axel shafts?

Thanks

jeff

Jeff,

Yes, off the car ... clean with gasoline or brake degreaser, wipe off with paper towels or rags, let dry, take indoors for reassembly and lubing, then put the axle back together & take it back outside for installation on the car.

Jim,

I have found that I can reuse the boots over 95% of the time! I used to tell friends to buy 4 boots in advance, just in case, but that was when they were $2.50 each, and I can only remember having to change 3 or 4 boots over the years, and that was for 25 or 30 sets of four CV's! In your case, if you can do a thorough inspection of all of the boots, and find no suspicious grease on the outside of the boots, you probably won't need any new boots. The 'little' clamp is not critical at all ... a Nylon Ty-Wrap will suffice. I have seen cases where there was no clamp in place when the CV-joint was taken off, and no significant oozing or leakage, either!

And, yes, I've always found one tube of grease to be enough! I don't put much grease at all in the boot ... just some in the corrugations to keep everything squiggly when those axles deflect. If you order two tubes of SWEPCO 101, you will be prepared for a little waste, and it will keep just fine until the next time, or until you need to do the front wheel bearings!

The repack interval I recommend is every 20K miles ... that is twice as often as VW used to recommend on the air-cooled cars, and I figure a 911's CV's are put under a bit more stress than your average Bug!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

[This message has been edited by Early_S_Man (edited 09-02-2000).]

Warren,
So I need to remove the inner race off the axels also, are they held on by a pin or circlip and do you need to press them off?

Regards

Jeff

Jeff,

They are retained on the axle by a circlip. One tool I always recommend to have on hand for CV's is a large plastic mallet ... the kind with a wooden handle and 8-10" long, 2" diameter translucent plastic head, usually yellow in color.

If you slip the boot 'up' on the axle, away from the CV-joint, the CV's usually come off easily or with a tap or two from the mallet.

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

[This message has been edited by Early_S_Man (edited 09-03-2000).]

Jeff, Warren is giving you a good tip about the Bentley instructions and especially the photos. My water-cooled VW Bentley has, I suspect, the same nicely detailed disassembly and reassembly discussion. Warren, doesn't the newest Bengley have the same thing?

Anyway, CVs are probably very much alike. One difference is that some have an internal dished washer instead of an external circlip. The internal washer ones take a bit of beating to remove. I have quite a collection of caveman tools. plastic, rubber, dead blow, ball pein.... They're each very handy and ALL tool users should have the plastic tipped hammer Warren describes which probably has a rubber tip on the back side.

Where do you get the outer clamps, Warren?

Isn't CV grease kind of overkill for wheel bearings? I'll inspect the boots well and replace as necessary. A couple may get changed...I'm not taking many chances here. It rains a lot here - They make quite a mess when they tear and spew grease - and if you don't notice it right away, dirt ruins the joint. I have always been advised to use extra grease. Then again, annual repack would preclude damage or failure. Jeff, Warren is also wise about cleaning them well and repacking them on a clean bench. In other environments you'll have contamination and aggravation.

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'83 SC

Jim,

I was astounded that the new $120 Bentley 911 Carrera manual has none of the great disassembly instructions and pictures that the old VW manuals have! In fact, they have adopted a new policy, apparently along the lines of many dealerships towards not rebuilding at all ... changeout assemblies instead! It (their new policy) is summarized in one DISTURBING paragraph:

"Disassembly of the CV joints is not normally recommended. If the joint must be disassembled for cleaning, mark the relative positions of the inner hub,the ball cage, and the outer housing. Remove the balls one at a time, and keep track of the them so that each can be reinstalled in its original position in the hub and cage."

The clamps I use to replace those small crimped metal ones are plastic wire ties (Ty-Wraps) available at most automotive parts stores and even Radio Shack.

One alternative is to get a $2 boot 'kit' for an old VW Beetle with swing axles (pre-'68) and use those clamps, discarding the split boot.

The HD Moly grease may be overkill for front wheel bearings, but I haven't to replace any of the bearings I have used in on! SWEPCO just seems to work a LOT better than run-of-the-mill petroleum lubricants ... must be something about the weather and dust in Fort Worth that gives their engineers the incentive to make a better lubricant than anyone else! I think it was around 108 degrees F there yesterday, for example ... not your typical mild September day, huh?

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

(trying to seem 'hip,' Superman says What's up wth the new Bentley? That disassembly policy is lame. It bites.

Now, for the more mature audience...I'd suggest to anyone doing maintenance to look for one of these earlier Bentley manuals in the used book store. They have EXCELLENT descriptions of many things that are useful wiht other, similar cars. the water-cooled VW book I have extends through CIS and Motronic systems and it give you lots of (surprizing) quick tests and tells how to make the "special tools" if they are unavailable. At $200 apiece (usual price) they can be considered unavailable.

I have some of those bi, almost half-inch wide 'zip' ties. Is this what you use, Warren? The end goes through a kind of one-way buckle? I've used them and they're probably fine, but the metal crimp clamps are the real McCoy.

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'83 SC

Yep, those are the style tyes I use, but in a smaller 1/8" to 1/4" width.

I think Bentley must have had a wholesale management/editorial staff change ... for such a policy to take place ... really disappointing!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

A question I've been wanting to ask for a while but never got around to it-
Does Bently make a manual for the older 911's cars, or is the VW one as close as they get?
Thanks

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'72 911 TE

Thanks to everyone that helped.

Yes I had them intstalled wrong and they would not move I should have paid closer attention removing them as it turned out to be a rubiks cube type puzzle that was pretty frustrating until getting the right info,
http:/volksweb.relitech.com/cvjoints.html showed the correct picture , after putting them back in they installed relatively easily

I need to replace a Cv bearing as my car has been sitting for a month or so and I must have lost one and I had no luck on a Sunday finding one

Anyone know the size of the berings or whrer to get them?

PS Still charging my battery hoping it will start after all this work
Thanks
Jeff
78Sc

It just so happens I have a bunch of bearings that I took out of my shot CV joint when I replaced the axle. I recently replaced both entire axles since my car was seeing heavy track use and I did'nt want to risk a tow ride home. My mechanic and I opened one CV joint up to expose the source of failure and came up with all those metal marbles. If you need one, email me and I can send one out on Tuesday. Michael

Jeff,

Mine are 7/8", but I don't know the size of the later ball bearings, but if you take one to your local industrial bearing supply, they will be able to measure and match it, for sure!

Matt,

No, Bentley doesn't have a manual for the earlier cars, or even the 2.7 cars, and that was the first big disappointment for me! Their 'new' management must have shortsightedly decided our classic early cars just don't justify the effort to document them ... not enough of the Gucci set own them, so they apparently think!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Documenting early 911s. Hmmm, Warren, that's an interesting thought.

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'83 SC

Thanks for the offer Michael,

I am going to check Napa and a industrial supply house here if I don't have any luck I may take you up on your offer


Regards

Jeff

Superman, I know where you're going with that! Warren's a very perceptive guy, but there is no response to your hinting. Maybe he's just too busy. I don't see how he does what he does here on the board, much less a book.

But as I have said before, sign me up for a signed 1st edition.

Warren, you should seriously consider this!

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Mark Isaak
'74 Targa

[This message has been edited by mark 74 carrera (edited 09-04-2000).]