Mine

I disagree. And so, apparently, does Schroth. I can't tell you how many cars I've been in at DE's that use the stock seats and 4 point harnesses. More of that than cars with the setup you describe to be sure.

Used properly, harnesses with stock seats work very well. Certainly a big step up from the factory 3 point rig. I have no problems "in space". I am quite firmly planted I assure you. My only concern would be in a roll-over because I have no rollbar. The harnesses allow no "duck" factor in case the roof collapses-which isn't a factor here because he has a cab. In fact, I think it would be more unsafe to use the three point belts coupled with a rollbar than using the more secure 4 point.

But let's remember, we're talking DEs or car control clinics , not racing. I suppose if you're going to drive like an a$$ at the DEs you might want all the protection you can get, but I suspect you'll be ejected/black flagged before anything bad happens.

mikez said
Mike, I'm very interested. Is it a bar designed for the Cab? Will it fit in an '84? The reason I ask is because the DAS website lists two different roll bars for the SC cab vs. the Carrera cab (which is what I have). I'm wondering if the mounting points would be the same.

How much do you want for it, Mike?

OK. You guys have all convinced me that I'm not crazy! I'm doing it then! :D :D

North Coast Cab...that shot you posted is the coolest action shot of a Cab I've ever seen. I love it! Classic three wheel corner exit. Woohoo! What kind of wheels and tires are you running in that shot?

I have to repost that pic:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168466011.jpg

Scott, You should do it for sure! A roll bar will offer much more protection then a Targa bar. In fact I am putting a roll bar in Stay Puff very soon. Mikes bar should be perfect for you also.

$350.....email me for details.

356@cox.net

It's possible to run 6 point belts with stock seats as well. You attach the sub belts to the same mounting points as the lap belts and then run them between the seat and seat back, and sit on them parachute/climbing harness style.

I started with a cab and it should be more than fine for DE. Just don't go overboard building a 'race' cab. When and if you are ready to take on faster tracks, go can for a coupe at that time.

Bob-

Read my post. I only referenced 5/6 point setups, not 4. (I don't think much of 4 points anyway, but that's just my opinion so we'll leave it alone.) I'll retract my comments on 6 points as I have no direct experience with them.

I don't make much of a distinction between racing and DE, as the speeds are similar. I don't drive like an a$$ at DE's, but I do instruct and that means 996TT's and Z06 Corvettes with stock belts in the green run group. Those cars will easily top 140 on the straights with a novice driver. It may "only be DE" but 140 is 140.

The setup above (I think) shows a 5 point setup, where the shoulder harnesses go around the stock seats. Check the G-Force Installation instructions here. Their recommendation is that the shoulder straps be 3-6 inches apart or there is risk of the belts coming off the shoulders. That seat is what, 12 inches wide?

I don’t see a sub strap either, but I assume it goes over the front of the seat. As you come forward, the sub belt will slacken, just as you need it to tighten. The lap belts then ride up into your midsection, causing injury. Look at the PCA club race rules here and you’ll see the sub strap cannot go over a seat cushion.

Maybe those are 6 points and are OK with stock seats. I still see harnesses mounted improperly all the time at DE. Yes, you'll pass tech, but it's still not right. I wish there we better instructions on line.

Anyway, track your cab!

I did read it and it seems you were spanking me on my race seat statement which had nothing to do with 4 5 or 6 point harnesses. No harm done. We simply differ.

EDIT:

OOOPS...John/aka North Coast Cab...what are the wheels you're using at the track? Appear to be minilites/panasports? Size? Weight? Where to get them? And could you post a side shot of them? Your profile only shows the fuchs at rest.

Thanks

Jim

These are actually great points to consider. A lot of the cars I see with harnesses/stock seats are BMWs, which have a seperate headrest, allowing the shoulder straps to be close together. I ride high in the saddle and I have very broad shoulders, so the wide separation caused by the 911 seat is actually good for me. I also use a strap across the front of the shoulder straps which keep them from sliding off.

I will change my "racing seat not necessary" statement to "I don't need a racing seat". With the extra headroom in a cab you probably can install a racing seat on sliders. Unfortunately, that won't work for me in my coupe.

I don't mean to wander into this debate, but IIRC some sanctioning bodies (perhaps SCCA?) allow use of harnesses without them passing thru seats if they are routed thru "positioners" for lack of a better word that keeps them from separating and falling off the shoulders. We ran the shoulder straps thru slots welded to the shoulder height horizontal bar in the main rear hoop to satisfy the positioning requirement.

I may be pulling this out of my left butt cheek but I'm sure we did it to satisfy a tech requirement for some sanctioning body a few years back. At the time I was running primarily w/SCCA and BMWCCA.

pichttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168512874.jpg i have to disagree greatly with the above statement about driving like an ASS! everybody is driving like an ASS! please go over to the racing side and view video of the mini-cooper vaporizing itself. please look at the evo car doing the stones rendition of TUMBLING DICE! 140mph is 140mph if the track your on allows that. neither PIR nor FIREBIRD raceways have long enough straights to allow that. but i can promise you, you will be pegging 4th gear at warp speed and will not have the balls to look down at your speedo! and there will be no "DE" fairy to help you if YOU or SOMEONE ELSE SCREWS UP! ie. yes its a DE but it is no different from RACING! and people do spin(myself included), people do crash, people will screw up big time in front of you and behind you and right next to YOU!

yeah we built a super cab. why? because we could.plus the fact we are sick demented dyed in the wool race fanatics. if it says race on it ,we wanna watch! we have ONLY 114# of weight we can legally shed to be at our PCA/SCCA weight limit w/me in car and 1/2 tank of gas. and that in itself is a HUGE DEAL trying to shed weight LEGALLY! we have DONE ALOT and SPENT ALOT! but the coolest thing is.............IT STOPS! the goody factor of buying parts and wazoo go-fast, stop quicker items is LIMITED! you dont have to tow a bank behind you to feed the addiction. yes we went overboard on safety. why not ,already had (1) winning race car w/fire system go up in flames. once burned twice shy. you learn something. bought the best firesuit known to man, 5-points,seats,fire system AND handheld. arm restraints, bell forced air vortex helmet(parker pumper to be added). then we went after suspension and brakes. then we deleted bumpers/carpet etc. on the diet plan. and on and on. it has been (1) year and the car is UNREAL as far as handling and safety. we did add oil cooler due to az. heat and that was a big improvement. it has become a totally different car after suspension and tires-michelin dot "r"(MPCS). PCA is very strict on tech, so do not buy used dated items. they are especially strict on cabs for the obvious reasons.

my car has been modified to the LETTER OF PCA showroom stock rules w/exception of carbon fiber hood which we would loose points on. no chip added, just K & N filter, and GHL single in/out exhaust. and at 110k every known part that hung on engine externally replaced ie. fuel filter,plugs ,wires etc.

tried to be cheap on tires.........and that bit me in the ass. went w/yoko es 100's and found their limit. traded them back in for michelin pilot cup sports and it is true. once you go to DOT "R" tires you will never go back. best improvement to new bushings,new bilsteins,turbo tie rods,alignment,adj. sway bars you can make.

pichttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1168515211.jpg

a side note..........after your 1st or 2nd DE you will have the pleasure of finding every single OIL LEAK on your car.

have a signed/dated check made out to pelican sitting on your desk for when you get home from DE, so you may order parts to stop all oil leaks. ask me how i know!

you also will find out all about the little CASIS light on your dash and what the REV LIMITER is all about. if you have replaced oem steering wheel w/another smaller wheel. turn your tach in dash, so redline is at 12 o'clock, so as to catch a micro glimpse of tach if you dare take your eyes off of track! your ears despite surrounding noise and helmet will become attuned to when to shift. vrrrooooooommmmmm!

with arm restraints and as per PCA rules it IS LEGAL and highly advised to run with your top DOWN. top must be secured. cant EVEN comprehend being on track w/top up. too many blind spots on cab tops. and trust me you get real good at glancing at all (3) mirrors for whats sneaking up to eat your lunch.

usually its those pesky 2.7 and 3.0 stripped down versions. if they are on hoosiers..................they will eat your lunch thru the twisties!

There was a discussion about the new proposed harness regulations for PCA DE's on the AutoX and Racing forum. THe new regs will ban 5-6 point harness's from two piece , folding seats. They are only to be used with one piece shells. If you are going to use stock seats, you will have to use the stock, 3 point belts. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-autocross-track-racing/320947-new-seat-regulations.html You might want to check with the group you will be running with to see what they will allow.
Joe

nice smooth pass jeremy. that was cool!

Again, we fundamentaly disagree. I don't see it as the free for all you do. Thankfully the people I share the track with don't either. I have yet to do track time with an a$$. Yes- we go 140 mph, but it's NOTHING like racing and you know it. I shouldn't have to explain the myriad differences but one biggy is we can do it in totally stock cars. Are you suggesting that not be an option? If you're not, what are you saying? To improve your car is wrong? That 4 point belts aren't as good as the fatory shoulder strap? Is it an all or nothing situation like Todd said?


This is a long debated topic. You have your opinion, I have mine. My opinion is that a 4 point harness is superior to the 3 point factory belt. To ban those would be a mistake- IMO. There is no debate that a nascar rollcage, race seat, six point harness, and fire suppression make for a safer race car. However, we are talking about street cars that go on the track, not track cars that go on the street.

More debatable topics:

-Should you have a roll bar/cage and not wear a helmet? Are you going to wear a helmet on the street?

-Should you have harnesses and not a roll bar?


Again where does one draw the line? Apparently you draw it at having a rollbar which you consider going "overboard on safety". To me a rollbar in a cab is a bare minimum and I would prefer a cage. Again, we are both entitled to our opinions.

i really beg to differ...........at PIR on my 3rd lap 1st run march 06, i have a ferrari doing TWIN 360's sliding up the #1 turn embankment at over a 100mph 1/2 a car length in front of us! that isnt dangerous???? excuse the hell outta ME!

my instructor (barrett-club racing-az) noted my driving skills avoiding certain bad ju-ju-voodoo(classic nascar moment-aim where they AINT!) and signed me off THAT INSTANT! this is no passing in the corners, hand out to flag faster cars on DE! the rest of the day i ran solo after being signed off, and witnessed quite a few people sliding off into oblivion!

same held true at firebird at a PCA event. many spun(me included) and a number spun into dirt aprons creating mini mushroom cloud over them when they came to rest! if you are IN THE WRONG PLACE AT THE WRONG TIME, you'll be crying to mommy that you should have spent MORE MONEY ON SAFETY EQUIPMENT! this was evidenced in intermediate class where speeds are slower and then in advanced classes where its obvious speeds are faster.

the very second you think its not racing.............its gonna BITE YOU HARD!

PCA made it very clear (bob beck) that YOU DO NOT ALTER YOUR LINE FOR ANYBODY EXCEPT PULLING TO RIGHT AND FLAGGING FASTER CARS ON THE STRAIGHTS! advance class may pass in corners, if its a CLEAN PASS! but it DOESNT ALWAYS WORK THAT WAY!

give me a break!

I think that there are different degrees of safety.

I think, and from what I have gathered from talking with people with LOTS more experience than I have - come to a few realizations.

Racing buckets, especially with 5 point slots are going to be safer.

If you are going with the DAS rollbar, then I would definitely get the upgraded one with the shoulder harness guides. I realize that stock seats with harnesses are not ideal - I plan on switching my 5 points out for 6 points so I can anchor the leg retraints on the hip points.

I will also look into getting the chest strap to keep my harness from slipping off my shoulder.

In reality though - I think it comes down to the individual. We are talking about DE's - We are talking about not driving out your a$$.

Several areas of Sebring you can get into the 120's to 140's. Even in a full caged race car, having a collision with an immoveable object at that speed can ruin your whole day.

Be smart - upgrade your safety equipment as you can - but most importantly drive within your limits.