For what it is worth, there is some information on driver restraints that everyone should read, if they intend to take their cars on the track.

Go here, from the HMS Motorsport web site:

http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/docs/Competition_Instructions.pdf

The long and short of it is that the seat and harness work as a system and three point belts work best with stock seats and 5 or 6 point belts work best with race seats. Scroth makes a 4 point belt that acts like a three point belt in an impact and is probably the only non-stock belt I'd consider with stock seats. The article explains why this is so.

If you have any doubts or questions, call Joe Marko at HMS Motorsport. He has quite a bit to say about driver safety.

Be safe,
JR

I"M GOING TO SAY THIS VERY SLOWY AND IN CAPS SO THAT YOU UNDERSTAND!!

:D Geez Charles, lighten up.

I will say, thanks for the heads up. I wouldn't care to do a DE in your zone. Early sign offs and frequent spins. Wtf? No wonder you went "overboard" on safety.

Give ME a break.:rolleyes:

ps-you illustrate one of the many distinctions between racing and DEs for me- in a DE you have the luxury of "the line" with no interference from other drivers. In racing, you compete for it, but often don't get to have it. Another biggy.

SmileWavy

after racing OFFROAD all my life and finishing 2ND OVERALL IN STATE and HAVING RACE CAR BURN TO GROUND, i will NEVER COMPROMISE SAFETY!

this years to do list....................FUEL CELL! end of subject. you can NEVER BE SAFE ENOUGH!

you dont get to choose what driver level someone is in your run class. its assumed(dangerous word) that everyone is at EQUAL LEVEL of driving skill.

but lets throw some WHAT IFS?????

another car drops oil and you spin or someone else spins.

another car has crap tires and over aggressive driver.

another car has less suspension and over aggressive driver.

someone gets a flat(last run of day dec. i got tech screw in right rear.-literally drove car off of so-called "clean" track onto trailer and had flat!)

or a multitude of mechanical or human errors.

as evidenced by the plethora of video on pelican and other sites............CRAP DOES HAPPEN AT DE's AND PEOPLE GET HURT AND KILLED! its happened SCCA/PCA/AZ CLUB RACING.

since i have been involved with scca many years ago w/my 77 datsoon 280-z, i learned some things. i was placed in advanced class last DE. i declined and returned to intermediate. bob beck even mentioned YOU NEVER HEAR THAT! everyone is always screaming to go up in class. but i had my reasons. car had entirely new suspension, new tires unfamiliar with at warp speed. at most important we had all of us az. pelicans together for all of our runs. it was a blast. i had my ass waxed by CUL8R and a number of others. even got black flagged for not letting faster car go by(i did wave him on but he failed to see). bob beck talked to me when i came into hot pit and i explained and he said "go have fun"! after run told me NEVER TO CHANGE LINE except when pulling to right on straights and flag faster car on. always maintain the LINE YOU HAVE PICKED.

when you have a lot of cars show up............EXPECT THE UNEXPECTED!

I've done a couple of DEs in my Blkbird. I switch out my seats to Recaro Pole Positions and install my DAS rollbar all in about an hour. The shoulder harness for my 5 pt. Schroths are attached to the roll bar, the sub belt is permanently attached to the car and so all I have left to do is install the lap belts. Pretty safe setup?

But let me throw in my two bits regarding other drivers in your group. Only in my case it wasn't the other drivers I found unnerving, it was the instructor in the car with me.

The weekend in question was off and on again wet so the track never had a chance to dry off or, alternatively, wash away any oil. My instructor drove a 968, a nice 50/50 weight ration car of moderate HP. Blkbird is a modified Turbo cabriolet putting over 400HP to the rear wheels.

So there we are coming down the hill at turn 12, Road Atlanta, and before we get to the apex my instructor wants me to open up the throttle. At least I think that's what he wanted. Between his accent, our helmets and substantial road noise our communication was limited to hand signals.

I chose to ignore my instructor. I figure if the rear breaks loose on a wet oily track it's my car going into the wall. And who is to say I didn't misunderstand his instructions. You all know it's your car, and ultimately your responsibility for what happens. But I have to say that was the last DE for me.

It's a lot of fun to crack the throttle wide open on the back straight, feel the roar of the turbo and break 140mph. I always felt my car and my equipment choice were sound. But that last episode? Nah, I'll keep my car intact thanks. At least until they assign instructors by the type of car they own, and the type of car you own.

great point re: instructors. some are 911 savvy and some are not.

last march at pir, driver of ferrari all dressed out in red omp suit like mine. instructor was decked out in what appeared to be m.schumachers exact suit. we figured he was hot shoe ferrari factory guy. well as we hurtle ourselves down pir's straight going east to west turn 4 to turn 1. thats where he biffed it BIG TIME! just as he started turning wheel. now we are at 4th gear, a hair away from redline when this occurred, right on his A$$. dont you think ferrari instructor would have mentioned STRONG STRAIGHT LINE BRAKING and " your tires are cold, the track is cold procedures?????

man i will never forget how close he came to smacking the hell out of the wall! and i will never forget the load of crap i had to clean out of my pants.

i may sound brazen sometimes...............but the track is a very humbling experience and PRIDE DOES NOT GET IN THE WAY!

SAFETY GETS IN THE WAY! i want to spend every penny of my kids inheritance. and oh yeah i really do enjoy life! when im old and in a wheel chair..........my wheelchair will have flames on it, as i chase nurses down the hallways of the "OLD AND IN THE WAY" home for geezers!

Charles, I agree with pretty much everything your saying about safety equipment - there's no such thing as too much, and I don't really buy the argument I've heard that more safety equipment makes you feel more invincible so you driver harder/faster at a DE.

But I've also got to agree with Slo-Bob that I wouldn't want to do a DE in your region. I think our local PCA chapter (UCR) would be pretty ashamed to have that many spins, crashes, etc. and if they had a record like that, I wouldn't attend their events. Sure, things happen, but the whole point of having instructors and black flags is to keep a lid on egos and/or stupidity, so people do less stupid things. I've only done 7 or 8 DE events so far, and I've seen a few people do stupid things, but nothing life-endangering.

At the last PCA DE I was at, there were 3 crashes, 2 in the rain, all of which were single-car accidents limited to more or less cosmetic damage only. I'd never seen so many at one DE, and it did shake my confidence a bit, but the level of severity was low enough that I'm not too worried.

alot of people show up for both venues, pir and firebird. usually they are sold out! at pir for club racing az., you could be right next to carerra GT or any car that matter. i really liked the 4-door pontiac sunbird w/GIANT WING! LOL! or the FULL RACE WINGED BMW's FROM HELL! anything can be running next to you.

as mentioned you never really know the skill levels. what can i say? all i am doing is trying like hell to avoid collisions w/moveable and non moveable objects. it is NO DIFFERENT than off road racing(as far as my PUCKER LEVEL) w/exception of no dust for the entire run. sometimes at firebird, dust will cover track because of spin and the wind! no walls at firebird just dirt runoff aprons. unlike pir that has THE WALLS OF VOODOO SHAME OR WORSE all around track.

it takes copious amounts of courage for me to do this. i have seen many many wrecks in my life and never want to see another. and i drive like that.

little offroad tip............just finishing..........IS WINNING! just finishing a DE w/out problems..............makes me a HAPPY CAMPER!

Maybe we should draw a clearer distinction here between competitive events and DE/fun events. In a race I would expect less stupidity but more risky moves, as there's a goal in mind. In a DE I would expect a bit more stupidity due to the higher level of inexperience, but I would also expect much less risky moves, and I would expect the stupidity to be a one-off thing. Do something dumb, get black-flagged, apologize, learn from your mistake and don't do it again. At a DE I always anticipate the guy in front or behind to do something stupid, but I also expect that they won't deliberately do anything risky. I've never raced, so I can't speak to that, but I'm sure my expectations would be markedly different.

Wow. Great discussion going on here.

Charles, I have to say that I get your message 100% and I agree with it. There is nothing wrong whatsoever with prepping your car as well as you possibly can for safety. Nothing. I can also see SLO-BOB's point in that one does not need to equip their car to near-race-car standards in order to have fun at a DE.

It would help though, and you can't fault a guy for doing it.

I've only been to the track twice (both DE's) and for the most part things have been fairly safe and orderly out there. However, just about everybody was driving very hard out there and really pushing themselves hard. There were a lot of cars out there that were much faster than my 996; cars like Vipers, Corvettes, etc. These guys would blast past me on the straights like I was standing still (and I was doing about 120 mph). So with these guys all driving as hard as they were, there were bound to be problems, and sure enough things happened.

My first day we had two guys spin coming out of turn six. One of those guys was in his C5 vette and I was right behind him. I guess he decided to try to hold me off and pushed a little too hard for his ability level. Next thing I know he spins right in front of me and takes it right out into the dirt infield - backwards. All I kept thinking was "where is he through all this tire smoke and dirt flying around?" I thought he might come spinning back onto the track. He didn't but it just goes to show that the unexpected can certainly happen.

Piece by piece I will quip the cab to be as safe as I can make it (without turning it into a race car).

Thanks for the input guys!

stupid little motto i picked up years ago from being just shy of an eagle scout................BE PREPARED FOR ANYTHING!

there you go 450knot.............crap happens at DE's!

my bimmer buddy a few years back watched a twin turbo p-car smack the turn 4 wall so damn hard at speed at PIR that the car was totaled. had to pry the guy out and put out flames. my buddy was working that corner with his son! they were first to the car and it WASNT PRETTY!

guy was on street tires and it bit him BIG TIME!

dont be lulled into complacency!

if it was racing very quickly you would figure out others abilities. since you never know who or what is going to show up, be on guard and always try to think ahead...............ie. WHAT IF THIS HAPPENS WHERE IS MY EXIT! stage left or stage right.

good luck 450 knot. its fun its addictive and you will drive like a granny on the street, unless its open road and clear air in front!

There you have it. Two (at least) different opinions on one topic. Nothing new there. Clearly, Charles has a lot of experience. That experience is quite a bit different than mine, which btw, didn't just occur yesterday either. That said, I can't disagree with much of what Charles said in the last few posts. We both agree that you can't be too safe -speaking within the realm of high speed events. However, it seems as though the region in which I participate (Wisconsin) focuses more on mindset than equipment and the region in which Charles participates vice versa. I'm sure there is far more to it than that, but it's my general impression from what I'm reading.

Charles-Some of my questions have not been answered though. Where do you draw the line? Should stock street cars not be allowed in DEs? Why don't you use a cage? And a new one-what's wrong with street tires ina DE? Feel free to start a new thread. I'm sure we have much to learn.:)

450-sorry for digressing and hijacking. Didn't really mean to as I felt some of the info might be useful in your decision to equip your car. As far as your car, you need to find that compromise between street and track. Where it ends up is up to you. The range is vast-Full cage, 6 point harness, slicks, etc or roll bar (I would add some good padding btw) and seat belts. Honestly, if I had your headroom to work with I would bolt a Pole Position in on sliders and get the 6 point. In any case, you're going to have a blast in that car!

PCA DEs allow for the use of street tires....they also require arm restraints for cabs as well as a roll bar. Tops in most cases are required to be up and the windows down.

BTW....I also have a fiberglass hard top with the three lexan windows that I might be willing to part with.....never used or installed....

Bingo! That's the ticket. Do you still need to use a rollbar with the top? I would assume so, but just asking. I'm further guessing that arm restraints are no longer needed with the fg top.

I'm not sure I want to go the fiberglass top just yet.

I have a DAS roll-bar that I used for 2 drivers ed for sale. It will fit in your 84'!

mikez...........i have given serious thought to a cage. and am about to contact dougherty(das sports) about them mfg. cage that can be purchased after buying roll bar. thats my first step. if not will just whip it to patrick motorsports and have them fab one up. not a big deal. will be a pain for buzzing on highway, i'm 6'3 and it will obviously have to clear cab top for full up/down operation.

PCA rules allow top DOWN..........as long as you have complied with all safety rules. ie. arm restraints. i got pegged twice as i was going onto track by bob beck and another guy. they told me to put my top up. i told them go to hell i have arm restraints and as PER PCA RULES i can run w/top down. reason they stopped me is my harnesses and arm restraints are RED as well as my firesuit! they couldnt see them.

i would never run with top up. too many blind spots. you will notice this real quick.

just got azclubracing.com newsletter. they were talking about what a great day they had at PIR on saturday and then giving apologies for sunday when the NASCAR class had one of their own HIT THE DREADED WALL OF VOODOO TURN 4 at mega mach warp speed and driver taken to hospital. thereby shutting race down for rest of day because ambulance had left track. no KRANKENWAGON no racing!

these real live nascars may be next to you also depending on how your driving ability is. this isnt wamby-pampy mommy hold your hand DE's! please look at turn 1 and turn 4 next time any race is televised at PIR. prior to all races they paint them pretty blue for cameras. prior to race they are the BLACKENED WALLS OF CERTAIN BAD JU JU VOODOO!

i have had everything that has 4 wheels on it next to me in the starter class for DE's. one time they had the bimmer club there. 2 guys my buddy knows have a LONG STANDING GRUDGE. i mean fist fights type of grudge. these (2) clowns were admonished in drivers meeting to cool their crap! did they? hell NO! talk about nascar drafting!!!!!

i feel very comfortable at PIR. i know my limits and have done enough laps there earlier in my life w/280-z and now my 911. firebird is all twisties w/one so/so straight. this is the west track. the east track i feel is much nicer w/a longer main straight and many mini straights w/less twisties.

the west track takes alot of practice to master. there is one off camber sweeper right that will pucker the hell out of you if you dont set up correctly for! i'm looking forward to monyana pitting jeff(CUL8R) and his 87 full race stock coupe. just watching jeff is poetry in motion. he lives only a couple of miles away and has been on the track quite a few times and is VERY GOOD! to bad leeh puked his motor last time(hes rebuilding probably as i write) because lee has one bad A$$ car also and can whip that puppy around very well. both ate my lunch last time. but they both had been there before and i hadnt. practice makes perfect. if you could run any track for a straight 7 days by yourself, you would have incredible lap times in the end. its all about getting familiar w/car/tire pressures/setting up for all corners. anyone can go fast in the straights............its the twisties that matter!

going to track and just watching is really helpful in picking lines before you actually take your car there.

the difference btwn the 2 clubs is really PCA is 99% porsches running while club racingaz. is run what you brung.

mike z...........yes i feel classes should be for those w/race tires. those with DOT "R" tires and those with street tires. i feel it would be safer. the single most bang for buck is TIRES! PERIOD! going from yoko es-100's to michelin pilot sport cups is un damn real! major handling difference.

I've had the same arguments with my cab when I had the time to take mine out...kids, work, the house have seriously cut into that time....the top issue....they inconsistently enforce it.....

One other thing...at PIR, I was pulled in because I had something hanging out of the car...it ended up being bunny ears that I had taped to my hemet....no sense of humor....

http://malmz.com/signatur/drives/phoenix/mtz01.jpg

My pit crew....

http://malmz.com/signatur/drives/phoenix/sm71.JPG

At speed....

http://malmz.com/signatur/drives/phoenix/sm89.JPG

nice car mike. if i find some bunny ears, i will grab them! what a HOOT! LMAO! humor is good! too damn funny!

looks like we will be rained out monyana. bummer! was really looking forward to pitting jeff. jeff may be coming out to willow this year sometime. if he does my bimmer friend and i may go also with his m-3. been years since i've been to willow when i worked at garrett L.A.

since cabs always seem to be odd duck out at track, i think pressing the issue as per letter of the rules will educate the tech people. cabs are rare on the track. dont know why???? hell of alot of fun. patrick moto building full race winged speedster w/mega monster motor from hell! it is SWEET!

just love the wind whipping around............nothing like it!

Question on the rollbar, it appears most are using the DAS. Anyone familier with or using the Autopower bar? Pricing is a little better but safety is the bottom line. Appreciate your comments. I would not leave it in all the time, just for DEs.

Scott -

Didn't read the whole post, hope I'm not being redundant.

Had about the same decision to make - I have an 04 C4S and did a few DE's in it. I had kept the 86 Targa and was going to sell it myself.

In DE events, got the feeling quickly that I wasn't really learning much. Group 1 or 2, ABS, AWD, stability management...

Hadn't sold the Targa, my kids wouldn't let me. (O.K. it's an excuse, stop smirking)

Upgraded the suspension, bought a set of Hoosiers on 7's and 8's for $500 (THANKS AGAIN KANA) and am having a blast. No comparison - would much prefer to DE the older car.

Good racing seats make a big difference, and are easy to take in and out.

Triangulated strut brace? better Sway bars? I had all the suspension stuff put on at once (23/32 torsion bars Sport bilsteins re valved ERP sway bars, poly bronze bushings bla, bla, bla)


The difference was dramatic, the suspension is very stiff, and I don't have to worry about body flex because I'm still not driving the car to it's potential.

To you and me at least, that "No good for the track" stuff is head trash