"street legal" harnesses?

[nostatic]

I've seen the Schroth "Rally" 4-point harnesses listed as being "street legal" (DOT approved). Anyone run these in their car?

Also, assuming a good seat (eg Sparco Fighter or Roadster, or maybe a Monza) can you safely run a harness like that without a harness bar (assuming you attach to the rear belt points)?

[masraum]

aren't 4 point harnesses supposed to be really dangerous?? Isn't the rule that you always need a sub-belt?

[ChrisBennet]

Originally posted by nostatic
I've seen the Schroth "Rally" 4-point harnesses listed as being "street legal" (DOT approved). Anyone run these in their car?

The Schroth "street" belts do it by having one of the shoulder belts lengthen under impact - essentially converting it to a 3 point.

Also, assuming a good seat (eg Sparco Fighter or Roadster, or maybe a Monza) can you safely run a harness like that without a harness bar (assuming you attach to the rear belt points)?

No, the seat is not designed to support the belts. You need a harness (guide) bar or you need to run the belts all the way back to the firewall with proper mounting plates. The rear seatbelt mounting points are plenty strong, they just aren't up high enough to give the belts the right angle in the absence of a harness bar.

-Chris

[nostatic]

well, there is that. From what I've read the sub is to keep the lap down low on the hips so it doesn't slide up and yank your innards in an impact. But if the alternative is a stock 3-point, I'm not sure how that keeps that from happening either. Also, some of the seats have guides for the lap portion of the harness (like the Fighter) so it seems like that might help. Not sure though...

Do we have an FAQ on harnesses/safety?

[thevojtiseks]

Is it really O.K. to mount your harness to the rear firewall and not use a harness bar ?? What needs to be done to reinforce the firewall adequately ?

[Rot 911]

Hey Chris! Nice letter to the editor in Excellence this month!

[slope-nz]

I know that a 4 or 5 point harness is a pain on the street. The dash controls are out of reach ,heat controls ,radio and such.FWIW ,I dont think that a 4 point system is that bad at our speeds. I would like to here more feedback on this matter though. Randy

[dotorg]

The Schroth harnesses are, I believe, the only DOT legal ones out there.

I've got the passenger side ones for my car, the drivers side has been on backorder for almost six weeks. They're DOT-legal, have a label stating so, and have an orange push button to release. They also have a doubled back part of the strap (ASM) thats intended to rip on an impact. The idea is to let your upper body twist like with a 3-pt seatbelt, which is why they're safe to run 4-pt instead of 5-pt.

I have substraps for them.

I'm using floor mounts and big washers for the lap belts, and the shoulder straps go through my Recaro seats to the roll bar.

Now if only HMS would get the damn drivers side back in stock...

[Todd Simpson]

The 4 points ride up because the shoulder belts are attached in the middle of the lap belt. The 3 point is attached to the end of the lap belt, secured to the chassis so it can't move. You may also get some benefit from the shoulder belt tightening the lap belt in an impact, through the latch.

[masraum]

What Tod said about the difference between no sub belt and the stock belts.

[ChrisBennet]

Originally posted by thevojtiseks
Is it really O.K. to mount your harness to the rear firewall and not use a harness bar ?? What needs to be done to reinforce the firewall adequately ?

A racer/machinist friend made me backing plate. They were around 3x4" 3/8" thick on the engine side of the firewall and a matching plate of 1/4" aluminum on the inside. 4 bolts at the corners sandwich the firewall between them. I have one plate per eyebolt or 4 in all.

CON:
- Ideally, you'd like to have the harness straps as short as possible which this setup doesn't allow.
- Requires drilling holes in rear seat.

PRO:
- No harness bar or shoulder harnesses in the way of putting stuff in the back seat. When I get to the track I unload the rear seats, clip in the shoulder harness belts and go.
- Nothing to snap your neck on if the seat bends back in an accident.
- Seat can recline for resting.
- Folding rear seats up covers eyebolts.

I had a rollbar without a harness bar and this setup was a great compromise IMO.
-Chris

[Wil Ferch]

slope-nz:
With the specific exception of the Schroth set up...there is no 4 point system that is "safe enough" that avoids needing a sub belt. It's not a question of submarining forward...it's a question of shoulder belts causing the lap belt to ride "up" and causing soft tissue damage. You can never predict the impact forces and qualifying it as OK because it's for the "street" is simply bad thinking....
---Wil

[nostatic]

Originally posted by dotorg

I have substraps for them.

I'm using floor mounts and big washers for the lap belts, and the shoulder straps go through my Recaro seats to the roll bar.

How are you mounting the sub straps (to the lap/harness)? It looks from the catalog picture like the latch mechanism isn't designed to take a 5th attachment (like the 3" lap harness).

[nostatic]

Originally posted by ChrisBennet
A
PRO:
- No harness bar or shoulder harnesses in the way of putting stuff in the back seat. When I get to the track I unload the rear seats, clip in the shoulder harness belts and go.
- Nothing to snap your neck on if the seat bends back in an accident.
- Seat can recline for resting.
- Folding rear seats up covers eyebolts.

So what seat are you running with this? I'm not crazy about the idea of a harness bar becuase it hinder access to the back and how far I can slide the seat back. No one ever sits in the back seat behind me (no belts there), so it stays folded down all the time and is where I put "stuff".

Do you have pics of your install?

[dotorg]

I'd have to go back and look. I haven't driven the car yet with them, since I don't have the drivers one. I seem to remember when I was laying the harness out in my living room it just plugged into the latch.

[Porschekid962]

I run Sparco EVO II's in the car with the Schroth 4pt belts. I think they work fine, the rear is attached to the rear seatbolt mount points but I am thinking of moving them up to the firewall with some reinforcement.

[Steve@Rennsport]

FWIW,....

We are Schroth WD's and can answer any questions you might have about these kinds of applications.

I've used the Street Harnessbelts in my 911 for 20+ years with excellent success,....

Please e-mail me directly if you need assistance.

[HarryD]

Todd,

Here's my setup with the Rally 4.

.

I got the belts and the Stable Energies Guide Bar you see in the picture from a Reputable supplier in Oregon.

While I only use them when I AutoX. I can tell you that I cannot reach any of the conveniece controls when I am strapped in.

I have not tested them in a crash so I can't speak for the riding up issue.

However I will offer this thought: Sub Straps are commonnly seen in F1 type race cars where the driver is laying down on their back in the seat. In our cars, we sit very straight up and I am not sure how you would slide under the lap belt in that posture.

[HarryD]

Originally posted by nostatic
So what seat are you running with this? I'm not crazy about the idea of a harness bar becuase it hinder access to the back and how far I can slide the seat back. No one ever sits in the back seat behind me (no belts there), so it stays folded down all the time and is where I put "stuff".

Do you have pics of your install?

Todd, you will need a guide bar of some sort regardless of what seat or harness you use. It is very important that the shoulder belts be (more or less) parallel to the floor when they go over your shoulder to avoid compression injuries.

[Zeke]

Originally posted by HarryD




However I will offer this thought: Sub Straps are commonnly seen in F1 type race cars where the driver is laying down on their back in the seat. In our cars, we sit very straight up and I am not sure how you would slide under the lap belt in that posture.

When laying down in a formula car, or a sports prototype and others, you need a 6 point harness to keep you from sliding under heavy braking as well as for impact. The purpose of a 5 pt. was mentioned earlier here; it is to keep the lap belt down where it belongs as the shoulder belts, when tightend, try to pull it up. You basically are pulling in both directions at the latch. It is possible to slip down even while sitting up, that's the second funtion of the sub belt. For that to work properly, it has to go thru the seat bottom.

They sit straight up in stock cars, too, and they ALWAYS use a sub belt.

Once again, Wil and I are on the same page. I just said it differently.