First time 911 buyer, need some dumb questions answered

Hello all,
I am in the market for a used 911. I did some research on the web, ordered the 911 issue of the Porsche Market Letter, and bought Bruce Anderson's book, and thought I had a good idea of what I was looking at. I went and looked at the first candidate today and realized I still don't know very much about Porsches. If anyone can give me some guidance I would appreciate it.

Here are my observations after driving it:
It smelled like hot oil. It didn't smoke, that I noticed, and it started right up, but as soon as it was warm it was really noticeable. The sales guy said that it is normal, because the car is oil cooled. This sounds somewhat reasonable, but I would think that the oil system is closed, and you shouldn't be able to smell it. Is this normal?

The power seemed flat below about 3000RPM. I was a little disappointed when I put my foot in it getting on the freeway. Even in low gears, it really seemed sluggish until the tach hit 3K, then it really came alive and pulled strong. Again, the sales guy said this was normal, that is the way the torque curve is. Granted, I have no prior experience with 911's, but I have owned vehicles with similar power/torque numbers, and this doesn't seem right. Is this normal?

When getting off the freeway, I had trouble downshifting. I tried to go to 4th, and then to third, but it didn't want to go in either gear. Finally I put it in second after coasting the whole exit ramp in neutral. I had no problems upshifting. It could have been my lack of familiarity with the shifter, but does this sound like symptoms of synchros going/gone bad?

The sales guy called the color Guards Red. With the car in the sun, the paint had a slight orange tint to it (my wife thought it looked like a tomato). I never noticed this tint in any other Porsche. I am not the most observant person in the world, but I would think I would have seen that before.
Is this correct, or may the car have been repainted?

The car I looked at was a 1978 SC coupe, with 16" alloys and a whaletail. It had about 134k miles, and the body seemed to be in good shape. There were a few small rock chips, a very minor dent in the hood (trunk?) from the inside, and a scrape on the engine cover. The black rubber section of the tail was pulling out on one side (looked like a 30 sec hot glue fix to me, am I wrong?). There was no rust that I could see or feel. The car is Red with tan leather, and sport seats. It has Carerra tensioners, and receipts going back to 1993. It needs a passenger mirror motor, and a drivers window motor, and some small interior trim pieces. The asking price is $13,900. According to PML, the price range for 1978 911 SC's is:
Low: 6,500--Median: 12,900--High: 20,000
Assuming it passes a compression and leakdown, does this sound like a reasonable price?

I really appreciate any guidance I can get.
Thanks in advance,

Tom Aiken
Fremont, CA

Well, I don't want you to substitute my judgment for yours, but I have an impression: You sound a little disappointed. There are some details on the car that need attention even at first glance. Perhaps you didn't have a comfortable driving experience. I'd probably tell you to respect your feelings here. Those details will take money and time to restore.

My sense is that you can find an awfully nice SC for $14k. Awfully nice.

Now, in response to your specific questions: Shifting in these things is often balky and an SC this age probably will need its tranny opened. Mine does. I'm waiting, and driving.

These cars have a manly smell to them. Part oil, part friction material, part leather. My car got new, collapsible oil return tubes about 15k miles ago and this stopped the leak. By the way, everything that leaks off the engine drops onto the heat exchangers. The engine sits on them like a plate. they're hot and they burn the oil.

FWIW: I love Guards Red but I probably could not afford to drive one. My Quartz Grey Metallic SC seems to be invisible to folks driving white cars, if you know what I mean.

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'83 SC

Tom,

If you are looking for an SC, then wait, drive a few, and get a good feeling for the car before you buy. When you are looking at a 20+ year old car there is a lot to take into account. Best advice, spend a lot of time reading this board, find a good Porsche mechanic and do not, under any circumstance, buy on impulse. If you don't do your own work, I would recommend first "shopping" for a Porsche mechanic, then let him/her? help you find a car. If the shop has a great reputation, you will most likely have better luck than the newspaper. Also, find your local PCA and get to know some of those folks. They would be more than happy to point you in the right direction with your questions on the "local scene".

Your observation on the 3000 rpm is pretty accurate and I would say normal for that car. Did you run it to 6500? Its a pretty wide power band, but not great below 3K.

You should not have trouble shifting, although the transmission can be somewhat hesitant.

As far as the smell, I have heard it referred to as 911 fragrance! But mine does not smell any different driving than when parked, is not overpowering in the least and is a hallmark of the car.

Good Luck!
Joe
'80 SC Targa

The burned oil smell means the car leaks oil, or has leaked oil in the recent past. This pretty much describes every 911 on the road (pre-993, at least). But if it smells like oil is still burning, then have the dealer promise to fix all the leaks, and also have the car looked at by a Porsche technician.

I will give you the advice that most of us have failed to heed. Do not buy the first 911 you look at. Don not buy the second 911 you look at. Do not buy a 911 without a qualified Porsche guy going over it and giving you a list (with prices) of everything the car needs done. Do not make an impulse purchase. The paint job is the easiest thing on a car to fix, but it's what leads most buyers to decide that they've found the perfect car. In fact, a paper trail to the date of delivery in the U.S. is the most valuable thing you can find as a feature on one of these cars.

They are very expensive to fix -- and that is true even if you're doing most of the work yourself. It is much more cost-effective to take your time and find one that is in excellent (and well-documented) shape already than it is to discover after the purchase that you're in for a tranny rebuild, an engine rebuild, brake rebuilds, etc. A lot of 911 owners learn this by the time they buy their second 911. The first one is often just a rude financial awakening.

My opinions, of course. Your mileage may vary.

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Jack Olsen
1973 911 T sunroof coupe

I have to agree, for the most part, with Jack. Don't even consider buying a car until you've looked at several. I'm STILL looking after 7 months, and I can tell you that I've passed up at least two reasonably priced cars because they had what turned out to be minor or common problems, and I just didn't know any better. On the other hand, I've also passed on some REAL JUNK. There is a LOT of junk out there, particularly at dealerships. I've seen a '91 C2 that I estimated needed about $20,000 worth of work, and a couple of Carrera's that needed between $5,000 to $10,000 worth of work. This isn't really a Porsche thing...it applies to ANY high performance used car, particularly one that's old or has high miles.

The oil smell isn't uncommon, particularly on an old car, but if it is strong, it indicates a leak. Leaks can be trivial or serious. A leaking oil line is no big deal, a leaking engine almost always means an engine drop for several thousand dollars.

I would have to disagree with Jack about Porsche's being THAT expensive. I overhauled a junked out Toyota MR2 several years ago and it cost me about $5000.00 to put it in full working order...and NONE of the work was that major except replacing a leaking cylinder head gasket and the top end seals. I did most of the work myself, so most of that cost was for parts. I now own a '93 Stealth RT/TT that's aging. Parts for these cars are OUT OF THIS WORLD ($5000.00 for a factory exhaust, $8000 for a tranny repair, $3000 for suspension, $2000 for AC, $8000-$12000 for an engine overhaul....ANY Porsche made before 1995 is looking like a DIRT CHEAP car to me!!! ). The Stealth is certainly a fast car, but when I look at the prospects for potential repair bills, I have to conclude that it's time to say good bye to this money pit! Japanese cars are great and cheap up until they get to the point that they need some real work, then they rapidly seem to approach or exceed the older Porsches in maintenance costs quite quickly. This may not apply to something like a Honda Civic, where there are so many around a manufacturer can probably justify keeping costs at least somewhat down...but for their high performance models...forget it .... they make 911s look cheap.

Don't be in a hurry. Read as much as you can. Ask as many questions as you can think of. Find the weak points in a car, and then find out how much they cost to fix.

Just my opinions,

Bill Wagner

[This message has been edited by Bill Wagner (edited 11-13-2000).]

...a leaking engine almost always means an engine drop for several thousand dollars.

Bill, you should find a new garage!

As a side note, that salesman sounds like an idiot. To say that the car smells like burning oil because it's 'oil cooled' is like saying a water-cooled car should normally have all of its seats wet. Or that because a car is 'gas powered,' there should be the smell of gas in the cabin.

Maybe what you're smelling isn't oil at all, but rather exhaust fumes from leaking heat exchangers. See if the problem worsens when you turn on the heater. My '85 Carrera doesn't smell like oil at all (but then it isn't leaking at all, either)
regards,
jlex.

emcom5 - -
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You do not show your location in your profile - I agree with one of the responses above: contact your local PCA chapter - most have web sites now and see if they have classifieds. GENERALLY, but not always, most active PCAers maintain their cars to higher levels - of course the there are non-members who also do an equally good job with maintenance.
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To summarize above: Always look for a fully documented car - services records and receipts and ALWAYS have a pre-purchase inspection done by a qualified mechanic. This $100 to $200 is the best investment you can make purchasing a used Porsche. Even if you have to pay for 3 or 4 of them!
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Chuck

The oil smell could be the shift bushing leaking oil into the center tunnel. My '73 911 was doing this for awhile until I fixed it. On my 915 tranny you can change the seal with from the outside of the tranny with it still in the car, but I forgot if you can do that on the 901's.

As far as this car goes, I have a bad feeling about it for a first time buyer. Maybe it would work out for some of you guys who know how to tinker with a 911, but for a first time 911 newbie I'd avoid a modified '66 it can turn into a real money pit. I think a better car for you to look for would be a '78-'83 SC with low miles (<80K) and documentation. I would be more comfortable recommending a car like this. It might be more cash up front, but cheaper in the long run.

Lots of really good advice here. Again, I believe that for $14k you can expect an SC in really good condition. NEVER buy a 911 without a professional inspection by someone who really knows these cars. NEVER. You should also expect to see very few needed repairs in the first half hour of viewing and driving yourself.

PCA is a GREAT place to find out about good cars for sale, and many intra-PCA deals happen at super fair prices.

I do not agree that a leaking engine means thousands of dollars. Mine leaked in two places, oil return tubes which I fixed wihtout removing the engine (and which now do not leak), and oil cooler thermostat o-ring which costs a whopping $1.25 and which I neglected to replace when I had the motor out. I still fantasize about a leakless 911, and maybe I'll have one when I replace that o-ring. I'm a dreamer.

One more time: As an example, it would be easy to mistakenly buy a 911 with pulled or broken head studs. You would probably not be able to tell they are bad, but then you would find out that you will spend SEVERAL THOUSANDS of dollars to fix this. A professional inspection is this important!

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'83 SC

'it would be easy to mistakenly buy a 911 with pulled or broken head studs. You would probably not be able to tell they are bad, but then you would find out that you will spend SEVERAL THOUSANDS of dollars to fix this. A professional inspection is this important!'

Fair point, but a top-end overhaul shouldn't be THAT expensive, especially if you do some or all of the work yourself. Let's not scare this guy off!

Hmm, I think I mixed up threads. I was also checking out the thread about the guy wanting to buy the turbo-look '66. Oh well, my comments stand I suppose. Sorry.

Thanks for the advice everyone. I have decided to pass on this car.

The smell was definitely oil, there is no mistaking it. It was noticeable inside the car, but fairly strong when standing behind it. It was just as strong after the drive, with the engine off, so it is unlikely that it was exhaust.

As to the color, I saw 2 red Porsches today, a C4 and an older targa, and neither looked orange.

Superman: Good point, red may draw unwanted attention from local law enforcement. Don't need that. You mentioned pulled head studs, I know that is a problem with 2.7 engines, do the newer cars have this problem as well?

JAE: It pulled strong from 3K to redline, and I had no problem upshifting. I really think the downshifting problem could have been me, but I would need to drive it more to make that determination for sure.

JackOlsen: Good point about the sales guy. I expect a car salesman to try and blow smoke up my rear, but that was a stretch. BTW, I really like how your 73 turned out. Nice job.

Bill Wagner: You mentioned passing up cars for "what turned out to be minor or common problems". If you don't mind, could you please elaborate on this a bit? What kind of problems would fall in this category, that should not disqualify a car?

All: I didn't think of the PCA as place to find a car. I live in the SF Bay Area, and there are 4 or 5 different clubs within a couple hours drive.

Based on my price range, and the problems of the 2.7 engine, I have limited the field to a SC or an early Carerra, so 78 to around 85. I just need to keep looking, and not get impatient. If I take my time, I should find the car for me, and not go broke in the process.

Thanks again,
Tom Aiken
Fremont, California

This is an easy one. Get it checked out...
Next, inform the sales person that the car, according to your information, is on the low end of the scale. So it is worth around $6500. I think they are asking a ridiculous amount for a neglected car. There is a reason there is a low end to that scale. It is going to cost you $$$$$$$ to get it to the top of the scale.
Another thing, oil burning or leaking doesn't mean dropping the engine. When I bought my 3.0, it had 6 different oil leaks that had to be repaired, and all were fixed with the engine in. I have one left that requires the collapsable oil return tubes, which is done with the engine in.

Guards Red turn orange over time if exposed to alot of sun. Check under fluorescent lighting at night for paint mismatches.

Guys:

When I said that a leaking engine almost always meant an engine drop, I meant for serious problems....like crankshaft seals leaking...not some of the things that attach to the engine.

emcon5:

I passed on a '90 C2 in BEAUTIFUL condition that had it's airbag warning light on. This is apparently not an unusual problem and is usually fixed by checking and cleaning some of the connections to the collision sensors. It might have been turned out to be a real problem, but the car was priced low enough that even if the actual air bag was bad I could have had it fixed and STILL had the car at a good price. On another car, there was a severe oil leak (another C2) so I just assumed it had to be the infamous cylinder heads. When I actually got around to checking it out with the mechanics that fixed it, it turned out to be a bad oil line. By the time I made arrangements to buy the car, it was sold. Live and learn.

A GOOD Porsche sells FAST if reasonably priced. A bad Porsche can sit around for months on end.


Good Luck,

Bill Wagner

[This message has been edited by Bill Wagner (edited 11-13-2000).]