Alternative Fuel Injectors

[scarceller]

Originally Posted by ianc

Alright, for a couple hundred bucks I couldn't resist, so I grabbed a set. I'll report back...

ianc

ianc, what exactly did you purchase? the 159 injectors from FiveO on ebay for $200.00? Please confirm.

Thanks.

[dfink]

Please keep in mind that these are not just drop in replacements. They are a total replacement all or nothing. If you have one or two bad injectors you will need to replace them all. Good news is 6 of these only cost as much as 2 regular injectors.
I am still not sure what the difference is between a $33 injector and a $130 injector. And don't say price. Perhaps it is in areas not immediately evident such as heat tollerance. Or response time of the relay that would effect high RPM operation. The Ford engines probably were not turning 6800 RPM. Everyone is going off of looks like they work. We will never probably know the true differences unless Bosch decides to release the actual specs.

[ianc]

ianc, what exactly did you purchase? the 159 injectors from FiveO on ebay for $200.00?

Hi Sal,

Yep, that's just what I did...

ianc

[Johnb911]

I will sorry first.
I think I have read the thread but please confirm.

Will the Summit Accel ACC-150624 work in my 79SCROW???

[ianc]

Well, initial impressions are unexciting...

I received the injectors from five0 on Wed. Very quick shipping. I went to install them yesterday morning. Small problem in that one of the plastic caps on the tip of one injector arrived cracked, so I had to go down to S-Car-Go to grab a new one.

I installed them and have seen, really, no difference at all in the car's performance. It seems to run exactly as before, although it might start up a bit quicker. I haven't really had much time to evaluate them, but so far, I can see no difference in the way the car runs or performs. That is probably a good thing if you're considering these as a replacement. Some others have reported an improvement, but possibly my old injectors were fine as they were.

My theory was that after 145K, it was time to look at replacing them as a wear item.

I do not have any data as to fuel consumption, or changes in mixture as I have not had the opportunity to put the car on an EGA, although I will try to do this in the next couple of weeks.

So there is my unexciting story. The injectors seem to work fine in my, thus far, limited experience. I'll add more when I check the mixture,

ianc

[rcaradimos]

Nice work men, looking forward to the end results.
Bob

[khamul02]

Awesome, Can't wait to hear some more results after a bit more use and testing.

[ianc]

OK, here's a little update.

I think I was a little premature with my statements that I didn't notice much difference before, but I posted after only about 20 miles of driving. After having the injectors in the car for a few days I've noticed some more positive aspects.

One that I had correct is that the car does start much more easily than before, particularly when cold. Just a flick of the key and it immediately starts. Before it could crank for 3-5 seconds, now it just (pretty much) starts instantly after turning over.

Also, I notice enhanced tractability at low speed, such as taking off in first or reverse. I don't have to slip the clutch as much to get moving, particularly when cold. When warm, I can even slowly let the clutch out without giving it any gas and it will move off by itself. Something my SC did with ease, but never the Carrera, and which I always found frustrating.

As far as greater power or smoother idle, I'm not really seeing any noticeable improvement in those departments, but overall I'm quite pleased so far.

Will report back again when I've checked mixture and can verify mileage after running through a tank of fuel.

ianc

[rcaradimos]

ianc. thanks for the update. looking forward to your mixture results and mpg findings. my 3.2 has 185k on the clock and i suspect the injectors are some what spent. the car runs great but every so often i feel that i have a fuel delivery issue. I'm running a bottle of techron right now before my next oil change, ill run one more full tank of gas before i change the oil.
thanks again for the update
bob

[scarceller]

I have been doing some work on finding another possible alternative injector to our 158 stock one.
Here's the story:
I have been in contact with a injector company that reconditions injectors and struck a deal with the owner Howard to help us come up with possible replacement injectors based on real flow rates. So I sent him my six 158 injectors and he flowed them before he serviced them, then he serviced them and flowed them again and recorded all the flow rates. By the way they turned out to be in pretty good shape after all and servicing them help the spray patterns some and most interesting the flow when down after service by about 0.8% not much but interesing anyway.

So, next he had a good idea of what injectors could be used in place of the 158 and he did not mention the 159 or the 201 but did agree they where in the ballpark. So what did he mention using? He said the 360 and 364 would most likely be the best choice with the 360 having possible added feature that they don't heat soak as much (after the engine is turned off) because instead of the plastic cap at the end where the fuel sprays they have a metal cone that was designed by Bosch to help solve the heat soak issue. The other 364 injector is just like the stock 158.

So, next he flowed the 360, 364 and 158 on the bench at the sametime and guess what, they are spot on give 1-2cc diffrent over 30second run that sprayed about 70-71-72 cc in general he said my own 158s varied 2cc from highest to lowest and that this is normal and acceptable. But of course getting a matched set by flow testing is best. So he sent back my full set of 158s serviced and cleaned along with a full set of 360s (redesigned style) and next week he is sending me full set of 364s. He only charged me to service my 158s at $120.00 and sent the others on good faith for as long as it takes to test them.

So I'll put my 158s in today and setup idle and O2 and CO and run the stock serviced 158s for a few days. Then I'll replace the 158s with the 360s and setup again and run the car.

I also plan to buy a WideBand O2 sensor setup that will allow me to record via laptop AFRation, RPM and Position of the AFM barn door. I will then record full RPM range of these values for the 158s then the 360s and finally the 364s.

By the way the Wideband unit is from www.wbo2.com Model 2J1 sold by Australian company TechEdge for about $150.00 US shipped for the unit and the O2 I got from Autozone #17014 for $51.00. This stuff is really getting cheap! And it records more than just AFR! it has direct connection to tach signal. Also has 3 other 0-5v inputs and 3 more sensor signals. I have not seen any other device with this much onboard for this cheap. It's all in one unit that fits in the palm of your hand.

After I'm done with the 364s and 360s I may need some help from others willing to try them. Will look for volunteers later.

That's all I have for now, I'll post pictures of the 158 side by side with the 360 so you can see the diffrence once I get them. Hopefully today.

So why is Howard so generous? Easy - he wants to sell us injectors, it's that simple that's all he wants in return for the free test sets.

[ChrisBennet]

Originally Posted by Johnb911

I will sorry first.
I think I have read the thread but please confirm.

Will the Summit Accel ACC-150624 work in my 79SCROW???

Your SC has CIS and doesn't use electronic injectors.
The CIS injectors are relatively cheap. The electronic ones are expensive - thus prompting the search for alternatives.
-Chris

[ianc]

Good news, I'm staying tuned!

ianc

[rcaradimos]

QUOTE: By the way the Wideband unit is from www.wbo2.com Model 2J1 sold by Australian company TechEdge for about $150.00 US shipped for the unit and the O2 I got from Autozone #17014 for $51.00. This stuff is really getting cheap! And it records more than just AFR! it has direct connection to tach signal. Also has 3 other 0-5v inputs and 3 more sensor signals. I have not seen any other device with this much onboard for this cheap. It's all in one unit that fits in the palm of your hand.

Sal, is this unit portable? I would like to test my mixture or is it hard wired on your car?
Bob

[scarceller]

Originally Posted by rcaradimos

QUOTE: By the way the Wideband unit is from www.wbo2.com Model 2J1 sold by Australian company TechEdge for about $150.00 US shipped for the unit and the O2 I got from Autozone #17014 for $51.00. This stuff is really getting cheap! And it records more than just AFR! it has direct connection to tach signal. Also has 3 other 0-5v inputs and 3 more sensor signals. I have not seen any other device with this much onboard for this cheap. It's all in one unit that fits in the palm of your hand.

Sal, is this unit portable? I would like to test my mixture or is it hard wired on your car?
Bob

You can use it either way. Mine will not be permanent, I plan temporary install.

You can also buy the extra digital gauge if you wish to install permanent. I plan to only purchase the SJ1 controller from TechEdge then get the Wideband O2 from Autozone. I will not need the digital gauge since I plan to use the SJ1 with my laptop, if you use it with a laptop you can see every input from the controller and record all inputs real-time if you wish. The SJ1 is much more than just a Wideband O2 controller for measuring AirFuel Ratios, in addition it can record RPMs, 3 0-5volt inputs as well as 3 sensor inputs. You can record/log all of the signals at the sametime for analysys at a later time.

So for about $200.00 - you get the controller for $150.00 (shipped) + the WideBand (17014) from Autozone for $51.00.

[rcaradimos]

Sal, when you get the unit i would like to see how it works, let me know and I'll take a ride down to RI
Thanks
Bob

[ianc]

Another small update on the 159 injectors; I finished my first tank of fuel last nite.

Economy does not seem to have suffered at all, I ran 393 miles on 19.25 gal, which works out to ~ 20.4 MPG. This is mixed driving, and is the same as I was seeing before.

Going to the shop next Mon or Tues to look at the mixture on the EGA and will report then...

ianc

[scarceller]

UPDATE: Here are a few pictures comparing the stock 0280-150-158 injector to the possible replacement injector 0280-150-360. As I mentioned last week I just received these 360 injectors for testing and will install them this week. As you can see from the pictures the 360 is the same physical shape and size but the tip is metal and not removable, the tip was redesigned by Bosch to help solve a heat soak issue that exists with the old plastic tip injectors. The issue is that while the injector is running the fuel keeps it cool but once you shutdown a hot engine the injectors heat soak quickly and any fuel left in/on the tip orfice quickly evaporates and leaves behind a film/particles that result in clogging if the engine exposed to short driving cycles. The idea behind the new metal tip is that the tip was designed as a heat sink to help reduce this problem.

Keep in mind that the 360 injector has only been verified on the flow bench to flow the same as the 158 injector and has not yet been fully tested in our Carrera engines. I will do some early testing this week, will start by just installing and seeing how they run by seat of the pants method first. Then I plan to try some AFRatio testing soon afterwards.

Pictures comparing the 158 to the 360:

[ianc]

Sal, those look very cool!

Wish you had done this before I bought my 159's. Not that I'm complaining mind you...

I'm very interested in your setup to measure %CO and HC, so if you get a chance, please post some shots of the equipment, how to use it, etc.

Thanks for the work,

ianc

[Javers]

Was any more work every done on this? Sal did you ever get a chance to verify your AF ratios? I'm debating whether to send my stock injectors away for servicing, or replace with one of the alternatives.

Jon

[dfink]

[QUOTE=scarceller;3423976]the tip was redesigned by Bosch to help solve a heat soak issue that exists with the old plastic tip injectors. The issue is that while the injector is running the fuel keeps it cool but once you shutdown a hot engine the injectors heat soak quickly and any fuel left in/on the tip orfice quickly evaporates and leaves behind a film/particles that result in clogging if the engine exposed to short driving cycles. The idea behind the new metal tip is that the tip was designed as a heat sink to help reduce this problem.

[QUOTE]

I hate to even get back into this one but. Above makes no sense. You turn off a hot engine and no fuel is going to remain on either one for very dang long. The different tip produces a different spray pattern that would have been designed for a particlular combustion chamber in what ever car it was made for. Not that it wouldn't put fuel in the cylinder and make the car run and maybe run fine. I just don't believe the explanation given. But I suppose stranger things have taken place.
I have since found several injectors that are close to the 158. Unless someone has access to the several different kinds and performs AF testing on each type in the same car we will probably never know the exact results of not using the original. I think there are probably more to the specs than just flow and Ohms. Things like the maximum cycle time for it to open and close. Time between failure. Resistance to tempurature. All items that have not been discussed in this thread. I however admit that modern injectors may very well out perform the 20 year old technology that was state of the art at the time.
We know the original works as intended.
We Know some replacements appear to work and are cheaper
We don't know the under lying reasons of why one injector is chosen over another for the original design. This is all great information and provides some options for the experimental types. Keep On Squirting