What car is a better buy: a rebuilt 2.7 (74-77) or an SC that has never been rebuilt

[racer_X]

I just got off the phone with a buddy who was quoting the latest Grassroots Motorsports story on "Bargain Porsches". The article states that the 74-77 911 with all of it's problems with the 2.7, even if it has been rebuilt, is only the valued around $10k.

Okay, no argument there, that dollar figure sounds about right for a middie. ($8-12k I would say). And no argument for the reliability of the later 3.0 cars.

Still being new to the 911 community, I am trying to reconcile my thoughts on my current car, where to go with it and on my future 911s.

So my question is: Given equal condition cars, where the difference between them, is only a properly rebuilt 2.7 mag case (with all of the correct updates) versus an SC with no rebuild; is the SC a smarter value being $6-$8K more?

Couldn't you just buy a middie and spend the difference for a rebuild when the time comes? Or are the later cars just that bullet proof and won't need a rebuild?

Please correct me on my values if I am off......

[Targalid]

Get the 2.7 for 1500 and put a 3.0 in it. With a 3.0 it is worth 10K. With a rebuilt 2.7, maybe 6K or 8 with a super body.

[unclebilly]

It depends on who rebuilt the 2.7 and what they put into it. Did they put in cis pistons and cylinders or go the rs route?

I run a 2.7 in my race car and it is dead reliable and puts out over 200 hp to the rear wheels but it has carbs, dc40 cams, 9.8:1 compression, rs curved dist etc.

The mag case was only an issue in hotter climates.

[fanaudical]

Take this from somebody who's learning the hard way:

- Mag case 2.7 rebuild STARTS at $6-8k.

- Later SC's have better corrosion protection (meaning "some").

- They are all $20k+ cars. The only difference is whether you pay all at once or in pieces.

[Reifle]

As many articles have been recently written about the middies don't dismiss them at all! If they were rebuilt and done properly then you can almost guarantee they will run as well as any Porsche motor. The 2.7 did have a bad reputation especially with all the thermal crap etc... But enthusiats have taken the original motors and improved them - head studs, gotten rid of the thermal reactors, probably better pistons, some removed the CIS and placed carbs on top or kept the CIS (mine) and it runs like a Swiss watch.
If the middie has a rebuilt make sure the paperwork shows what has been done and the important part - who, and make an offer and enjoy it! I have a '77 with the 2.7 which was rebuilt and it runs great! Also I enjoy the narrow body look as well.

Also their are a few other things to look at - suspension, tranny, and make sure the car is rust free!

[racer_X]

Originally Posted by Targalid

Get the 2.7 for 1500 and put a 3.0 in it. With a 3.0 it is worth 10K. With a rebuilt 2.7, maybe 6K or 8 with a super body.

I guess that is my question, of course this is all hypothetical: Assuming that all things are equal, that both cars are in the same condition. Both are galvanized cars (1977 and on) Or you could compare an earlier, rust free car and a later galvanized car. The earlier car has a rebuilt 2.7 with all of the updates. The later SC 3.0 car is in the same condition without a rebuild.

Wouldn't the earlier 2.7 car be cheaper in the long run if you needed to rebuild the 3.0 in the later car? (since the cost of a second rebuild or swap is built into the 2.7 car's)

I am trying to understand the value here versus the market value.

Maybe it is more than just the 2.7 reliability here that is driving the market difference. Are the lighter 2.7, non flared cars not as valued because of the lack of tire you can put on them? Or maybe it's that you need the original emissions equipment in CA or CO to keep it on the road and that is a reliability risk for the middie cars?

[JeremyD]

Don't believe everything you read on the internet.

2.7's can be great, fast revving engines - the secret is to keep them cool. A quality rebuild goes a long way to their reliability.

Here's a 2.7 in a wide body car - It runs pretty good!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBgGwp9HQnw

[Walter_Middie]

John,

I think you have it correct – I’m not sure where you think are wrong. Maybe all the negative hype is getting to you. The differences between a 2.7 middie and a 3.0 SC is mostly in the resale value. You can probably put more money into a SC and hope to get a better return when you sell it. A middie is built mainly to enjoy – if that’s all you’re looking for, the middie can be the better deal.

The only difference in the cost of an engine rebuild is about $2500 for extra machining to fix the studs. All the other machining has to be done on any engine that is rebuilt whether it’s a 3.0 or 2.7. This extra cost can easily be made up in the purchase price. With a middie, you end up with a lighter car, and with the more classic look of a narrow body.

As with any car, condition is everything. Get one with no rust, no body damage, and one that has not been poorly modified or poorly repaired – especially in the wiring and electrical.

JeremyD and Unclebilly are correct, with some modifications, the 2.7 can be a real screamer – and you won’t be driving just another SC.

[bkreigsr]

nice video Jeremy, thanks.
(At least I backed off when I gave you the point-by)
Bill K

[ossiblue]

I think you really have to define your terms, in this case, "value." What do you really mean? You specifically wanted to separate "value" from "market value" so what is it you are valuing? Is it the driving experience? Is it the potential for owning a classic car? Is it cost of ownership over a long period? You've got to clarify what you want out of the car--besides resale--before you can begin a comparison.

[Kemo]

Originally Posted by Walter_Middie

– and you won’t be driving just another SC.

what?!? Just another SC???

Personally, I think the SC's are the best deal around. However, if you find one thats never been rebuilt, odds are you have a few broken head studs. Thats not necessarily a bad thing in that you have a bargaining tool to get the price down even further. Plus, you get the wider rear flares to boot. Also, if you need to add an oil cooler to the 2.7, thats another expense to factor in. Make sure you get a PPI on anything you want to buy. Its money well spent

With all that said, a properly rebuilt 2.7 should be very reliable, but alot depends on the rebuilder. Some are better than others... search Motor Meister.

as far as resale goes...i think there is a good chance that very original mid-years could be worth some money down the road simply because of inventory.

[gregwils]

You seem to be focusing primarily on the engine differences - rebuilt 2.7 vs non-rebuilt 3.0. It's a reasonable question, and as you might expect lots of variables that would influence the answer.

2.7's properly rebuilt are great engines, but 3.0 that are properly maintained and updated have had astonishingly long lives - some over 250,000 or even 300,000 miles without a rebuild. Although, I wouldn't consider driving a 3.0 without the tensioner upgrade. Unfortunately, I don't think there is an clear answer to your question without more background and detail.

[JeremyD]

Originally Posted by bkreigsr

nice video Jeremy, thanks.
(At least I backed off when I gave you the point-by)
Bill K

Not fair that you didn't know the track. and thanks for backing off.

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by fanaudical

Take this from somebody who's learning the hard way:

- Mag case 2.7 rebuild STARTS at $6-8k.

- Later SC's have [much] better corrosion protection (meaning "some").

...

just keep re-reading the above ...

a lot depends on what the rebuild includes on the Mg cased 2.7L motor - if it was very carefully machined, you'll be fine for at least 100,000 more miles

OTOH, the AL cased 3L motor will run for 300k, maybe 400k on the same bottom-end

I do not agree that both motors typically need the same amt. or cost of machining.

there is a significant risk premium with a 2.7L motor, but you might have no problems at all - it is NOT a given that the 2.7L will need more work, but it just might

add to that the fully galvanized body on all SC's, the improvements to CIS

[racer_X]

Originally Posted by ossiblue

I think you really have to define your terms, in this case, "value." What do you really mean? You specifically wanted to separate "value" from "market value" so what is it you are valuing? Is it the driving experience? Is it the potential for owning a classic car? Is it cost of ownership over a long period? You've got to clarify what you want out of the car--besides resale--before you can begin a comparison.

Good point, let me see if I can better explain. I am puzzled by the price differences of the market value when the actual value seems so close (or reversed).

We all know that the "market value" is a study of the average sale based on year and condition- i.e what the "experts" say the cars are valued at. A 74-77 2.7 is worth $8-$12K. A 78-83 SC is worth $12k-20k (hope I have those numbers correct)

I am trying to understand the "value" of the 2.7 versus 3.0 cars. So, by that I mean, what it is worth in terms of real world cost scenarios (not intangible things like driving it or whether you like narrow bodies versus flared fenders). In other words, what are you getting for your dollar?

For example: You buy a '77 for $10k with a rebuild, drive it for X amount of years, and rebuild the motor for another $8k. You have spent $18k.

You buy an SC for $16k, you drive it for X amount of years, and rebuild the motor it for another $6k. You have spent $20k.

I know you can make up different dollar amounts and scenarios, and maybe there is no way to conclude because it is all condition dependent.

But given the price differences- Is there any other advantage of a later 3.0 car that offsets the difference of several thousands more?

[Joe Bob]

PORSCHE 911 S ****LOOK***

$7400

[racer_X]

Originally Posted by RWebb

just keep re-reading the above ...

a lot depends on what the rebuild includes on the Mg cased 2.7L motor - if it was very carefully machined, you'll be fine for at least 100,000 more miles

OTOH, the AL cased 3L motor will run for 300k, maybe 400k on the same bottom-end

I do not agree that both motors typically need the same amt. or cost of machining.

there is a significant risk premium with a 2.7L motor, but you might have no problems at all - it is NOT a given that the 2.7L will need more work, but it just might

add to that the fully galvanized body on all SC's, the improvements to CIS

RWebb- I think you explained some other points I didn't think of- there is a couple of thousands in the differences ofthe risk, given a reputable maintained 3.0. Then there is a lower the cost in the rebuild because of the reputation of 3L bottom end, so maybe it is just head work versus the possibly of a full rebuild on the 2.7.

I assume that the SC are continuously improved (like the CIS as you say) so that is worth a couple more......

So in my mind you are paying upfront for less risk, (okay that is what thought and you all already knew) but it could go either way, you could have a middie go for more than an SC it's car dependent (I guess that is what I wanted to reconcile). This is why there seems to be such a variation in prices for the same year car and know I understand why you all keep saying the same things over and over "make sure you the car has good records!"

I am very happy with my rebuilt 2.7 and assume it will last. I just wanted to reconcile the price differences.

[racer_X]

Originally Posted by Joe Bob

PORSCHE 911 S ****LOOK***

$7400

I paid $7k for mine!

Just feeling out where to go from here (and waiting for my kids to get in and out of college)

[ParagonControls]

Yes really I agree with you.

[Flat6pac]

The cost involved of rebuilding a 2.7 vs. a 3.0, the 2.7 requires way more $ at the machinist because of the intrinsic problems of the magnesium. Case savers, dilivar head studs, line bore and the price of specific bearings, decking the twist out. Most of the mid cars had air installed at the dealer so there is no factory cooling for the engine. If the 77 has a console there is a factory cooler installed was the norm.
Save your money, sell the core and buy a 3.0 and a cooling system if the car doesnt have it.
Bruce