Woo Woo! Engine out

[preston_brown]

Thanks for all the offers of help guys. Actually, might be nice to get some assistance when it comes time to put it back in and hook everything up. With the way my schedule has been lately, that will probably be awhile...

Jim: I used two 15" massive crescent wrenches, one to hold the oil line and one to counter-hold, and NO BUDGE. I used heat, degreaser, penetrating oil, mild acid, stronger acid, NOTHING was working. You can read the thread and see the pictures here:

"Can't undo oil line for carrera engine drop"

I'm lucky in that I have decent shop equipment; that definitely helped the solo drop effort. No lift mind you, but good lighting (very undervalued!), a variety of floor jacks, jack stands, plenty of wrenches of all sizes, etc. and the engine cradle.

When I remodeled my house several years ago, I built my dream garage. Or at least, something pretty close. Here's a overview picture, sans 911; the "work bay/911 parking spot" is the farthest-most area:



I've got young kids, and that keeps my work time limited to mostly weekends. I'm usually too tired after coming home from work, getting my kids all situated for bed, etc. to get all greasy in the garage during the work week. I did the drop last night but only because I've been prepping to get it all done for so long. Honestly, the total time from the beginning, when I started unfastening things, to having it on the floor was many hours over a total of 3 weeks. Probably a sum total of 7-9 hours I would guess. I would assign a third to almost a half of that time working on the stubborn oil line. Next time will go much quicker.

I know the problem scope creep (while you are in there-itis). My previous job was as Director of Engineering for a large software company. However, it would feel pretty good to get the engine in tip top shape. This is a 3.2 motor with a G50, as you can see, and last time it was out was at approx. 80k for a clutch replacement. I bought the car at about 105k, and it is now at a little over 125k. The clutch feels fine but I will examine it for wear and replace if necessary. I'm driving the car a lot more now than in the previous two years and I don't want to have to drop it again in 6-12 months, if not absolutely necessary.

The motor has never been apart, and it consumes some, but not a lot of oil. No smoke. I'm considering what I should evaluate to see if I need to do a top-end job. If I end up doing a top-end job, maybe I should just go full-out and build a 3.4 liter motor or something along those lines? Ideas and budget recommendations would be welcome. I've kind of committed to keeping the car for at least another year or so, it is a lot of fun, and as you can see from my garage I like mechanical stuff. However, the pull of a newer vehicle is pretty strong; this is my daily driver, and I have kids and a wife to keep (relatively) happy. The smell of oil in the heat has to go.


-- Preston

[ros74911]

preston, that's an awesome garage. mine's half the size. so, i don't have a lot of room to work on the car. would love to help you put the engine back. you're on the opposite side.

[JeremyD]

That's a great garage!

As far as the engine - 3.4 l if you have the means - I highly recommend it - down low if feels just like a normal carrera but above 5000 it comes on like a banshee.

my recommendation is that if it's not burning oil - as in 1000 miles per quart don't open it up. fix the leaks and drive it.

If it's starting to use oil - then now is the time to go for it - rod bolts - 3.4l valve job, new bearings - the whole nine yards.

[preston_brown]

It isn't using a quart every 1k miles yet, so I'm going to leave it together. Another drop a year or so down the line will be much easier now that I have done it once.

Leak fixing and freshening time.

So, I had a bit of time tonight, and I got the motor and the G50 transmission separated. Didn't have a very tough time removing the cross shaft, no slide hammer was required. The motor did have a clutch job one time before somewhere in the 80k range.

However, after pulling out the cross shaft, I was surprised to find it was the old, needle-bearing type. I would have thought it would have gotten updated at the point the clutch was replaced. The clutch is also the rubber-centered type.

From the pictures, does it look like I need a clutch? As I said, car is now in the 125k mile range, and clutch feels fine. When I spun the throwout bearing in the pressure plate, I did hear rumbling. The disc itself looks like it has meat left, not worn down to the rivets. Pressure plate and flywheel surfaces are smooth and do not have ridges or scorch marks, but I'm not an expert. Someone who is, chime in?

Good news is it looks like both the crankshaft seal and the mainshaft seal in the G50 are dry, so no leak from there.

[preston_brown]

Engine w/o G50 transmission, clutch still attached:



I'm going to need to replace some breather hoses...



Transmission removed. Mainshaft seal looks dry. Lots of oil from engine in here though:



Other view of transmission:



Cross shaft and needle-bearings:



Flywheel:



Pressure plate:



Flywheel side of clutch:



Pressure plate side of clutch:

[preston_brown]

To follow up on the cross shaft/release fork G50 thing:

Maybe I do have the factory G50 update. Looks like this part:

950-116-086-06-M260

Available from our host. I guess the OEM Porsche part retained the needle bearings, while the "no-modification-necessary" aftermarket update uses bronze bushings. I will say that spinning the bearing on the end of the cross shaft showed it wasn't the smoothest thing in the world. Recommendations?

-- Preston

[SP2]

Great job Preston! I am pretty new to this stuff too, so I can appreciate the sense of accomplishment you must feel. It looks like your clutch should be replaced and flywheel can be resurfaced for about $40. From the looks of your photos it looks like you have leaks from the triangle of doom in the back. I also had these leaks and the oil drooled down over the back medial aspect of the oil cooler and all over the top of the transmission, just like you. When you put on the new crankcase breather gasket, consider spraying it with K&Y Copper gasket spray. It was recommended to me by John Walker. You will need a deep 24mm socket for the oil pressure sender, but a 15/16" deep socket fits perfectly and can be bought for $6 from any auto supply store. When you remove the oil cooler to replace the 3 gaskets, when you are towards the engine there is a small depression at the bottom and to the left, and another one on the other side of the crankcase metal. Clean these and fill with JB weld. I, unfortunately, did not do this because I just learned from JW to do this today. Maybe next time...

Thanks for posting the photos!

[Jeff Hail]

Originally posted by preston_brown
After struggling for quite some time with undoing the hard oil line at the rear of the engine, I finally got that undone over the weekend and I dropped the engine tonight. Now to fix (all?) the pesky oil leaks!

One small step leads to bigger steps and more neat stuff to buy. Get the latest parts mod catalogs, get a nice roll-away and stock it with more neat tool stuff. Get a comfy chair and a pen. Start circling catalogs items and ordering even more neat stuff. Stuff is good. When you have all your neat new stuff start installing. Remember never ever look at what things cost.

[preston_brown]

Jeff,

This is my first 911 engine drop but I've been messing with cars for several years. I've rebuilt a couple of 356 motors and various other mechanical stuff. Therefore I've amassed a pretty decent collection of tools...

I've had the 911 long enough (2 1/2 years) to pretty much educate me on what performance upgrades are available and what they cost. I've read Wayne's books and the other 911 stuff. I've been end-to-end through the catalogs. My eyes are open.

In the garage right now are pretty much every seal and or o-ring that I could find for the motor, as well as replacement cam tower gaskets because I think they might be leaking. I also have replacement rear shocks on order -- Bilstein HDs -- the ones in there now are the original 20 year old Boges. Ditto for the torsion bar bushings -- they are fully deflected right now while on the jack stands, so I know they are shot. I ordered the elephant racing replacements. I've got replacement rubber bushings for the sway bar as well.

This is my street driven commuter car so I don't want to make it too harsh. Any other suggestions for what to do while the motor is out? Clearly I need to order replacement breather hoses, the large ones are all cracked. Anyone else have an opinion on the condition of the clutch? It has about 65k miles on it and feels fine.

I hope to pressure wash things today so I can get a better look at what I am dealing with, and start pulling things apart without needing to degrease myself quite so much after walking within a meter of the motor.

-- Preston

[buttjoint]

If the clutch was working fine, I would probably use it. If it takes a poop in the future no big deal, Ya drop it again. Would just clean up the flywheel and reinstall. How is the engine sound pad. Now is the time if your going to change it Have fun Jim

[syncroid]

Preston, Once again "nice job".
If it were me, I would replace the clutch disc. Its hard to tell from the picture but it does look like it is getting a bit thin. The other surprise with a rubber centered disc is that they blow apart with no notice. DO NOT turn the flywheel! If you look up the machining specs on the flywheel you only have a margin of about .010" of an inch. It will be fine just the way it is unless it is blued from heat or cracked. I would definately replace the following; both the breather hoses, thermostat oring, and oil pressure switch. The ammount of oil I see in the bellhousing of the trans seems excessive. I will stick with my first post in telling you to check the flywheel seal. One more thing; your throw out shaft with brgs. is the updated version. If you had the early style you would need to find someone with the tool to modify the bellhousing or sue the aftermarket kit. I have done hundreds of these clutch jobs. Have fun.

[preston_brown]

Could I get away with simply replacing the throwout bearing and the clutch disc with a spring-centered type, retaining the old pressure plate?

I cleaned up the transmission with degreaser and my pressure washer, it looks a million times better. I still think most if not all of the oil was from the engine, not the transmission. However, I did order a mainshaft seal and I will replace it just to be sure.

I have some more questions on the clutch release fork and cross shaft, will make sense if I make some illustrations. Pictures to follow.

-- Preston

[buttjoint]

Sure, You can go with the spring center disc and replace the t/o bearing, Not a bad Idea. I have that combo in my 89 and its a good set up

[syncroid]

Could I get away with simply replacing the throwout bearing and the clutch disc with a spring-centered type, retaining the old pressure plate?

You could. Replacing the T/O brg. is always a good idea. When I did my engine I replaced the clutch with a spring center type. I kind of wish I would have stayed with the rubber center. The spring center disc transfers alot of transmission noise.
One more thing I forgot to mention. "While you're there", now is the time to replace the engine compartment insulation pad if its not in good shape. They are not too expensive.

[preston_brown]

Measured the clutch disc; it is about 9.5mm. Anyone know what is nominal/new?



I think I need a new cross shaft, regardless of whether the update was performed at the date of the last clutch job (which, judging from the date stamp on the clutch fork was at the earliest in 1996, or over ten years ago). If you look at the photo, you will see the scoring on the bearing surface of the cross shaft, and the needle bearing has fallen apart.




The plastic bushings in the clutch fork aren't in the best shape either. I assume I can use whatever comes with the wevo kit to replace them?

Here's a picture of the transmission. Thank god for pressure washers and degreaser. The engine will be next.

[syncroid]

That shaft looks pretty normal. Just replace it. You can get all the pieces in a kit form. Did you plug the transmission vent when you pressure washed the tranny? If not, then you need to drain it and change the gear oil. Lookin good. Keep us posted on your progress.

[preston_brown]

I plugged the vent but I'm planning on dumping the old gear lube anyway. More work tomorrow I hope.

-- Preston

[SP2]

Wow, nice! What degreaser did you use?

[preston_brown]

Methyl-Ethyl-Ketone, and some Chlorinated Brake-Kleen for good measure. No really, I used the citrus-based engine degreasers commonly available now. Let it sit for a few minutes, and then blasted with the pressure washer "turbo" nozzle. Did that about 4-5 times. I used a brown 3M scotch-brite pad on the stubborn stuff.

It isn't totally clean -- the oil "varnished" in some places, and that would take heavy-duty solvent to get rid of. This isn't a concours transmission/motor though, I want to clean it up so I don't get dirty every time I look at it, plus be able to identify fresh leaks. This solution worked well.

I removed the Motronic fuel injection and intake manifolds tonight. That was pretty easy but god, what a mess of wires and fuel lines and vacuum hoses. I have to bag all the nuts and bolts tomorrow so as not to lose track of what goes where.

Engine is looking much flatter now, like a flat-six should. Fan shroud next.

-- Preston

[buttjoint]

Another while your in there you can send out your injectors to be serviced. Cost about a hundred, Money well spent.