Modifed SWB cars

[rvanderpyl]

Other than the R look it seems a lot of people get offended by SWB cars that have been modifed with flares, bigger wheels and updated motors, sort of like the 356 crowd who hates the outlaws some people create. I know a lot of these same people say the SWB cars are to rare to be cut up and modifed in this way but that certaily does not seem to be supported by pricing. Given a decent condition car (Not concours, S or untouched low mileage) SWB still cars still are cheaper than 69-73 cars are. And no one seems to have any qualms about cutting up those cars for RS, RSR replicas. Why is this? I mean I don't think Porsche suddenly starting producing 2 or 3 times as many cars with the 69-73 series so it is not like the SWB cars are so much rarer.

[ttweed]

Originally posted by rvanderpyl
I don't think Porsche suddenly starting producing 2 or 3 times as many cars with the 69-73 series so it is not like the SWB cars are so much rarer.

Actually, the early production numbers are a bit vague and not well documented, but the best estimates I have seen show that there were some 26000 SWB cars produced between 1964-68 and approx. 88,000 LWB cars produced between 1969 and 1973, so there really were "2 or 3 times as many" LWB cars built. When you take into account the fact that the early SWB cars have had another 5 years in their lifespan to be "used up", crashed or deteriorated beyond repair (they had a bit less forgiving handling as well as less rust-proofing), it is obvious to me that there are quite a few less roadworthy SWB examples in existence today.

I have no objection to anyone modifying their car into anything they want--it's their car, and there is an ass for every seat, as they say. I have a SWB '68 with a 3.0 SC engine and 915 tranny in it, myself. But I do frown on some of the half-assed conversions that are done to the SWB cars to make them into RS or RSR clones without properly converting the wheelbase, which is a big job, and overlooked or skipped in many low-budget conversions. RS or RSR flares on a SWB car look out of proportion to my eye, especially if the rear wheels are not centered correctly in the wheel opening. It can be a glaring aesthetic error, which offends my sensibilities when I see such a car. I think it is better to just stay with the early, narrow-body R look if you are not going to go to the trouble of correctly converting to a LWB, or at least fabricate custom flares for the SWB chassis, as was done with at least one 911R for racing purposes.

As far as pricing goes, the run-up in early 911 values in the last year or two has made customizing the early cars a losing proposition. The greatest values have always been for the "original" examples, so unless you are starting with a car which has already been modified so far from stock that it would be hideously expensive to return it to its original configuration, you are throwing money down a black hole by modifying it.

Just my $.02,
TT

[ficke]

Good question, One I have thought of alot. My take is the market is changing on these early 911's and it is changing fast.
I remember very clearly a time when the split window and oval VWs were the cheap ones and the ones to cut up for Baja bugs. market changed on those fast and people cut good cars because they were a step behind the times. SWB 911's remind me of those split window VW's, SWB 911's were the less desirable car by the large crowd, they rust easier and since they were less desirable by the large masses they were the first to get cut for along time. So attrition played heavily on SWB 911's, unmolested not rusted SWB cars or getting very rare and people or discovering them, the hand built, raw driven and uniqueness of these cars is pushing demand. So the trick to not getting "caught with your pants down" and evaluate your car honestly and the market today.

[Grady Clay]

Tom reflects my sympathies.

I, too have a SWB I mod from new when I ordered it in ’68 from PKG. Fortunately I maintained the ability to return it exactly to original.

While I’m alive and can drive, I won’t return it to original. Porsche technology seems to have advanced through the years. Anyone with a SWB or ’69-993 should consider their options. Porsche made great gains with the later suspension (mostly to do with the technical advancement in tires).

One of our local Pelicans has opted to convert his early car to the 997 suspension. Not a bad idea. Sure, I won’t do this for my ’68 for historic reasons. Yes, I will buy a later car for the later technology. This is similar to a 356 (swing axle) owner deciding that a 911 (IRS) was a better car.

Is the current 997 suspension the best ever? Somehow I don’t think so. This is all a progressive evolution. The fun part is we can tweek our cars to match (close) to current Porsche technology. Some (like SWB) won’t match a 997. That doesn’t lessen the worth of a SWB. There is historic value there. We all understand a SWB will never be a 997 without destroying it’s originality.

The question now revolves around the “value” of a modified 911. Most mods are track oriented. We all take our early cars and make them track-worthy with later developments. That may include installing ’69 front suspension on my ’68. It may include 997 rear suspension on a ’72. Where is the limit?

We own our 911s for various reasons. Some are pure original. Others are current track worthy. Many are in between. I see no disadvantage for any.

There are simply two divergent paths.

Many of us solve this issue with multiple cars. We have a Daily. We have a tow truck & trailer. We have a 911 for the Country Club and one for the track. Is this cost efficient? Probably not.

If you want cost efficiency, buy a NEW 911, I did in ‘68. Today that car is a 997 GT3RS. How about ’08?

Best,
Grady

[tfiv]

I think it's really just the flares that folks frown upon. Anything other than an R rear flare just looks weird on a SWB. LWB flares weren't designed for the shape of the SWB rear sheetmetal.

[EarlyPorsche]

Remember that total SWB production numbers include the 912 while the later numbers are strictly the 911. SWB cars no matter which engine are far more rare than LWB cars.

[304065]

Robert, we've always been straight with each other so I'm not going to hold back with an honest opinion.

Here's the problem. The longevity of the 911 design is what causes the problem. People think that because a part from a 1986 911 will fit on a '65 911, that's an invitation to modify the earlier cars with parts from the later ones in the fruitless desire to replicate the style, handling, performance or comfort of the later cars, without having to incur the expense of buying a later car in the first place.

This is, as anyone who has tried it knows, a non-economic proposition. By the time one gets done flaring one's SWB 911 and making all the required modifications necessary to use wider tires, bigger horsepower, or whatever the sought-after "improvement" is, one of two situations has resulted. Either the modifications have been done correctly, and the car is a perfect replica of a 1986 911, or they have been done incorrectly, and the car is an ugly deathtrap with bondo on the fenders and rust under the skin. The modifier is worse off in two ways:

1) He has invested time and money modifying an SWB car in a way that will NEVER replicate completely the performance, handling, safety comfort or whatever of a later car;

2) He has destroyed the value of the SWB car to the largest market, which is the group of buyers who value originality. A one-off car usually has value to only ONE person; and

No kidding, an SWB restoration starts and ends with fixing rust, rust, rust. Not a single part on an SWB was EVER galvanized from the factory, which means that as a platform for high performance 40 years later, the metal is thinner, it's weaker and the tolerances are higher. There is no avoiding this, it's a machine. If you are building a vintage-eligible car using an old tub, this is a reality you face, and you compensate with the roll cage bracing for the lack of torsional rigidity inherent in the original design further downgraded by the effects of 40 years of corrosion. If you are using it as a fun street car, you have to know your limitations, which means, don't drop a 3,0 in and expect the original brakes to be up to the task. . .

So trying to save money by modifying an earlier car into a later one is a money-losing proposition that ends up reducing the supply of available parts and cars for people with an interest in preserving the past. It ends up making non-original cars that are worth less money to the modifier, and ends up increasing the prices of original parts to the restorer.

Now to the position that the early cars aren't worth saving because the market doesn't value them as highly as later cars. First of all, the liquidity and transparency of the market isn't terribly high so it's hard to get a real sense of what price is associated with what condition car. I can tell you that of the dozens of SWBs I've looked at, ALL had some rust somewhere or other with widely varying asking prices. So it's hard to make a generalization about the market based on individual examples.

The same thing could be said about the Early S market a few years ago, before the current price hysteria resulted. If you were to go back to 1990 and look at prices of good cars, and compare them to today, there is no way you would recommend that somebody "update" an early S with accordion bumpers, sell off the sport seats or do any of the other originality-destroying acts that would later be extremely expensive to reverse.

So my answer is, there is no compelling reason, from a cost or performance standpoint to make expensively reversible modifications to an early car. Some changes, like Grady's suspension and engine swap, can be reversed in a long weekend. Others, like the kind of garbage you see on eBay, wooden dashes torn out, dinky cheapo steering wheels, atrocious huge sport seats, fiberglass flares, incorrect replacement engines and painted-over chrome are mere holdovers from the Horrible 1980s modifications of 959 fiberglass body kits and bear-claw 930S fender air intakes.

So don't do it. Leave the old cars for those who value them and will pay you for the originality when the market matures. And for all the parts flippers, commercial sellers and other people who make money off this hobby, stop it: you're ruining the enjoyment of these old cars for ordinary people. We do NOT want the restoration and racing of old Porsches to be an activity that only The Rich can afford.

[EarlyPorsche]

John Cramer said it best "First of all, the liquidity and transparency of the market isn't terribly high so it's hard to get a real sense of what price is associated with what condition car." He is right.

I have a 1966 912 converted with a 911 engine and its a 1967 engine out of a car that was no longer I assume. I feel like my car brings life to the SWB lineup as it gives another good example of the car to replace what was. Don't modify them guys, you'll regret it later.

[rvanderpyl]

You know I think that I should try the restore game first. If I don't like the result I can probably sell the car easier if it is more stock, than I could now. Or at least sell it to someone who cares that it is a SWB car.

However I think I still need to go with the update to the front suspension as I do want make it a little more stable a drive and I can always keep the original one around if someone wants it.

So the question becomes, should I source a 2.0 motor for the car? I was planning a 2.7 with EFI, and I do have a 2.4 with MFI I could use. I'm not sure I want to stick with just a 2.0 T motor, even though that would be the most original.

And to take it further if I am spending the time and money to do this what should I be aware of. For example It seems that there were different fenders on a 68 as I see ads for long horn grills that seem to be 68 specific, mine uses the normal short ones, does that mean my fenders have been replaced at some time?

Were the window frames on 68's chromed brass, or was that just to 67?


Obviously deep Fuchs or steel wheels would be correct, but will it matter if they are 6" since I think the widest available at the time was 5.5"

What else?

[ficke]

Do you want a SWB car?
before you put a bunch of time and money into this car, think about what you really want.
If you want a hot rod track/street car and do not really care for the unique qualitys of a SWB why pay for it? maybe you should sell it and buy a better base car for your wants to start with, more times than nought it is a cheaper way to go in the long run and you will have the car more to your taste. SC's , Carrera's are getting cheap compared to these SWB cars and they already have the stuff it sounds like your looking for.

[Grady Clay]

John,

Thank you. Well said.

Others here are right on.

I’ll stand by my prior post. A lot of what happens depends on US. What can we do to have Porsche continue into the future?

Too much of what PAG does seems to be spending the capital that Dr. Porsche, Ferry Porsche and many others earned. I knew many. Sure, they (current PAG) are the most profitable auto company in the world. At what cost? I think that is at the expense of valuable Porsche history. Too bad.

Best,
Grady

[Facey]

the looks of the SWB cars is what attracts many people to them.

add a 2.7 EFI makes sens to me. still using a light weight engine, that pobably has torque characteristic well mated to the car, with a little more punch then stock...nothing wrong there...

i havn't heard anyone bashing the red 911R with a 3.8L in it... believe it actually won some best of's....

build the car you want. or buy the car you want.

for the SWB car in my mind it makes sense to:
2.7/2.8L magnesium cased engine
hand rolled flares, just enough to fit 16x8's or something like that.
get some of that really cool looking green tinted glass.
update the suspension with various wevo bits....
paint it in a period correct colour, and put one of those 3 out mufflers, (2 striaght pipes capped off, and one muffled outlet)....
keep the interior somewhat period correct, remove the rear seats, add a nice steering wheel....

[bob tilton]

Originally posted by Facey
the looks of the SWB cars is what attracts many people to them.

add a 2.7 EFI makes sens to me. still using a light weight engine, that pobably has torque characteristic well mated to the car, with a little more punch then stock...nothing wrong there...

i havn't heard anyone bashing the red 911R with a 3.8L in it... believe it actually won some best of's....

build the car you want. or buy the car you want.

for the SWB car in my mind it makes sense to:
2.7/2.8L magnesium cased engine
hand rolled flares, just enough to fit 16x8's or something like that.
get some of that really cool looking green tinted glass.
update the suspension with various wevo bits....
paint it in a period correct colour, and put one of those 3 out mufflers, (2 striaght pipes capped off, and one muffled outlet)....
keep the interior somewhat period correct, remove the rear seats, add a nice steering wheel....

I will stand with Facey.
Bob
68L with carb'd 2.7, LWB flares on all 4 corners, Weidman 7R wheels in progress

[304065]

A few more thoughts from my ruminations on the subject over the years.

Street driving is dangerous. High power-to-weight ratios in lightweight cars further reduce the safety margin: traveling at a high rate of speed compared to traffic only increases the likelihood of a collision. When your car has no airbags and is made of thin, corrosion-weakened steel with a wooden dash and steering wheel and low-back seats, for which seatbelts were optional. The more exposed you are to the hazards of the street the more you need to arm yourself with modern safety innovations. Grady's solution of a modern 911 is perfect in this regard: all the enjoyment of 40 years of evolution coupled with modern conveniences and safety features. Just make sure you get special paint to order. . . there is NOTHING that says you can't order Sepia Brown!

Now, on the track it's a different story. Safety comes from a set of shared expectations about driver behavior, rules and experience. In that context, modifications are performed within the limits of the rule book for the intended race class. Many of the cars you see modded for DE would NOT pass tech with any scruiteenering body in the world.

So my question always is, what do you want to DO with the car? Do you want to drive around town? Stay stock: it will keep up with traffic fine and has more than enough performance for the interstate.

Do you want to race? Then let the rule book be your guide?

If you want to "improve" the car for DE there are a host of safety and longevity related modifications you should make before any performance modifications are contemplated. Much has been written here about the importance of improved restraint systems, external oil cooling, suspension safety improvements, etc., so I won't repeat those threads. A while back Moses was contemplating some hacks to his SC for the track, that's the thread I'm thinking of.

[rvanderpyl]

I want a car that I can drive for pleasure, but also take to the track for DE's and autocrosses. The safety issue is a concern, I don't like the lap belt only thing and I need to find a way to put in more modern inertial reel 3 point belts, I was thinking of a rollbar with attachments added to the side of the vertical bars for the upper mounting point, advantage is I can also then install a set of 5 point belts for track use.

What did Porsche do to reinforce the A pillars when they added three point belts?

When I do this I intend to go thru the whole car, strip it down and make sure that everything is structurally sound, and repair what is not. Only then am I going to start to mess with upgrades.

I have everything to update my front suspension, the rear will need a good going thru and replacement of all worn componenents along with the addition of mounts for a sway bar.

Wider wheels and tires WERE on the program, hence the thought of putting on SC flares front and rear. the R had 7" as I recall, SC is 8" so not an huge difference, expecially if I stay with a stock front and rear bumper just tweeked to fit. But it allows me to have a second set of wider, higher profile rims for track use only and stick with a more period correct 15" Fuch (although wider) combination for the street.

I have no desire to completely cut up the car. What I want is something that the casual observer will just say, hey cool old car, but the person in the know will say, hey, what's different here? Kind of like Bobs car which is the inpiration.

[Grady Clay]

Aah, Sepia GT3RS!

Courage personified.

Best,
Grady

[call911]

Originally posted by Grady Clay
John,

A lot of what happens depends on US. What can we do to have Porsche continue into the future?

Too much of what PAG does seems to be spending the capital that Dr. Porsche, Ferry Porsche and many others earned. I knew many. Sure, they (current PAG) are the most profitable auto company in the world. At what cost? I think that is at the expense of valuable Porsche history. Too bad.

Best,
Grady

They may be getting the picture.......finally!

Circulate this to everyone who loves classic Porsche:

http://www.porsche.com/usa/classic-questionnaire/

Here is your chance to have some direct input.

Robert - Tasteful, reversible mods is the way to go. Grady has helped me immensely. I literally forward his posts to my mechanic during my current 911L resto!

[Porsche]

Originally posted by rvanderpyl
I know a lot of these same people say the SWB cars are to rare to be cut up and modifed in this way but that certaily does not seem to be supported by pricing. Given a decent condition car (Not concours, S or untouched low mileage) SWB still cars still are cheaper than 69-73 cars are.

Depends on the car's condition and the model. Early 64 901s, or S models are still fetching a premium. Very good condition SWBs are as well. It's not a SWB vs LWB thing, it's a model and condition issue.

And no one seems to have any qualms about cutting up those cars for RS, RSR replicas. Why is this? I mean I don't think Porsche suddenly starting producing 2 or 3 times as many cars with the 69-73 series so it is not like the SWB cars are so much rarer.

Making an SWB into an RS/RSR replica would be much harder than using an LWB. And as someone posted, SWBs are less common, and certain SWB models even rarer than others.

In the end, your 68T is your car. Do what you will with it. A nicely done R clone will always be appreciated. Long live the 68 SWB!

[NY65912]

I believe that a SWB car should be preserved. Now that is not to say that mods that can be reversed are not a good idea, on the contrary, I believe better braking and safety is a great idea.

Having had a very early 912 I do know that no matter what someone has told you or what you believe.........rust is present.

Truth is if it's your car you can do whatever the heck you want.

Back in October I was at Pocono for a DE with the Riesentoter Region of the PCA and there was a gent there that had a SWB car set up for the track in a serious way. He was VERY quick around the track!

That car was sooo hot! I might have a pic of it, I'll consult with my image department. Oh BTW 356 Outlaws are the cat's azz.

My true feelings are that the early SWB cars are better off being restored by those of us who are tenacious enough to do it. Parts are becoming scarce and expensive.

[Porsche]

Originally posted by NY65912
My true feelings are that the early SWB cars are better off being restored bt those of us who are tenacious enough to do it. Parts are becoming scarce and expensive.

Tell me about it. Much cheaper in fact to upgrade to later parts.