Calling all 69 owners (or those knowledgeable about 69's)

[t6dpilot]

I have a question about the 69MY that I hope this board can help me with. My 69 does not have the fuel vapor containment system like the 70 - 73 USA cars. It is not a factory resto, so I was planning on installing one and was comparing the various hose routings on my 71T. I noticed that there are couple of places where this system goes through the left side of the chassis into the fender well on the 71. They are factory punched holes and one of them is acutally a tube welded into the chassis just above the fuse blocks (again on the 71). That tube is on both sides of the chassis - trunk and inner fender well.

The 69 does not have any of these holes or the factory welded tube. I read recently that only US and Japan cars had the fuel vapor system. Euro cars did not. I also have been reading about the pre-70 cars' VIN sticker in the door jamb. There was some discussion about how Euro cars did not have that sticker or the tag on the driver's A pillar. My car does not have the sticker (but it has been painted, so maybe removed then) nor does it have the A pillar tag.

So, last night I get to wondering... Maybe my car was originally a Euro car. The big question to determine this is whether the 69 had a fuel vapor system, right? I guess I also need to check to see if the tag on the A pillar was removed or not. Sorry for the long roundabout story - does anyone know whether the pre-70 cars had a fuel vapor containment system?

Thank you.

[69911e]

There is no carbon canister on my '69 Euro. I believe the easiest way to tell if you have a Euro is the presence of an ignition lock which I was told is only available on the Euro '69.

[Grady Clay]

Here are the diagrams for the ’69 evaporative emissions system.

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© Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche A.G.

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© Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche A.G.

Best,
Grady

[t6dpilot]

Grady to the rescue again. I have been looking all over for those diagrams. Where did you find them - in the owner's manual?

My car does not have a locking ignition, but it may not have come from this particular car. Based on the lack of the proper holes and tubing in the chassis, I have to suspect that this car never had the fuel vapor system. That would lead me to believe that this is possibly a Euro car. Possibly...

Does anyone have a 69MY (T, E, or S) that is close to #54 and can tell me the build date? I suspect that mine would be close. I have narrowed it down to between #21 in 6/68 and #242 in 10/68. I suspect it was probably June or July of 68. Just satisfying that curiousity...

[Classic]

I have a MY69T Australian unmolested delivered car and it only has the charcoal canister, in the fuel system.

About the only change to the fuel system that is documented is the replacement of the fuel pump to a Facet?

[Grady Clay]

Scott,

Porsche 911 Factory Workshop Manual, Vol. I, '69 Suppliment page SF 45. This page was original in the '69 update. This binder pre-dates Vol II as Vol II update included a "I" decal for this original unlabled volume. This manual has (I think) all the updates through about '86 and covers everything '65-'83.

The manual is still currently available from PCNA - Vol. I-VI. The Owner's Manual may be also. I think I saw it on sale from some vendor in the past year - Pelican?


Interesting trivia; some of the updates were signed into this manual by Phil VanBuskirk (now PML Publisher and Editor) when he was Rennenhaus Parts Manager circa '75-'77. Small world.

Best,
Grady

[javadog]

Scott,

If you think the transmission in your car is probably original, check the type number on the case. A Euro car should have a 901/07 and a US car should have a 901/06.

I believe the A pillar serial number tag started in 1970.

JR

[t6dpilot]

JR, interesting about the A pillar tag - I did not know that. Also, the transmission is not original to the car unfortunately, so that won't help. Thanks for the information, though.

[javadog]

Scott,

If you want to determine if your car was a US or ROW version, I guess you are going to have to do a little research. It gets a little tedious, but it can be done. The thing to do would be to try and identify differences between the cars built for one market and the other.

For example, if you have the combination oil temp/oil pressure gauge in your car and, based upon the date code it appears to probably be original, take a note of the part number and look at a parts book, or PET. The ROW 911E would have had a different gauge than the US 911E.

There are many other examples but, you get the idea.

JR

[t6dpilot]

JR, another interesting item that you brought to my attention. My car has an oil pressure/temperature gauge that does not have temp numbers on it. It just has a range with a red zone and light (red) at the top of the temperature gauge. That light should not be confused with the red light at the 12 O'clock position on the combination gauge.

I have not been able to see where those style of gauges were used. I just figured that it is maybe a later model gauge. I looked and the first US car to use a non-numbered temp guage face was the SC (I believe), but the oil pressure side of the gauge was different that the earlier cars. It had single numbers and was called "Druck Press." My gauge has the early style of oil pressure PSI markings. Here is a pic.

img]http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads9/DSC_00581171384763.jpg[/img]

Could it be that the Euro cars used this style of gauge?[

[t6dpilot]

[javadog]

Originally posted by t6dpilot
JR, another interesting item that you brought to my attention. My car has an oil pressure/temperature gauge that does not have temp numbers on it. It just has a range with a red zone and light (red) at the top of the temperature gauge. That light should not be confused with the red light at the 12 O'clock position on the combination gauge.

I have not been able to see where those style of gauges were used. I just figured that it is maybe a later model gauge. I looked and the first US car to use a non-numbered temp guage face was the SC (I believe), but the oil pressure side of the gauge was different that the earlier cars. It had single numbers and was called "Druck Press." My gauge has the early style of oil pressure PSI markings. Here is a pic.

img]http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads9/DSC_00581171384763.jpg[/img]

Could it be that the Euro cars used this style of gauge?[

That doesn't look like the correct gauge for a '69. It lacks the international symbols for the handbrake and generator lights that were present, for the first time, on 1969 model gauges. Take a close look at the upper inside rim of the gauge and get the part number and I'll look it up.

The individual temperature gauge can be easily removed from the combination instrument and I'd assume it has been changed at some point. If you pop the gauge out, take a look at the back and read the date stamp on the housing and and look for any markings on the temperature gauge portion. Take a close look at the screws that hold the temp gauge into the housing and let me know if you think they have ever been tampered with.

JR

[Grady Clay]

Scott,

Inspect the temperature instrument. Is the part indicated by
the red arrow a “window” with an indicator light behind? You
may have to remove the instrument from the dash. Does a
bracket hold the instrument in place or is it held in place with
a large rubber gasket? What is the date on the back of the
instrument?




If there is an indicator light at the top of the temperature then
the instrument is for a Sportomatic equipped car.

Look on the rear cross member between the two rear shocks.
Are there mounting brackets there? Any sign of them having
been removed? If there are (or were) brackets, the 911 was
originally equipped with a Sportomatic.

Please post an image of your temperature sender at the engine.
Is the fast-on connector perpendicular-to or parallel-to the long
axis of the sending unit?

This temperature instrument can be very useful. The number
calibrations can easily be added by the instrument shops. You
want to use the combination of the sender with the fast-on in
the long axis (common for ’65-’68 911s) with instrument
calibrations for a ’68. This gives the most sensitivity (most
needle movement with temperature change). It does this by
reducing the range of the instrument to the most important
region.

The Sportomatic over-temperature warning light switch is a
readily available part. The connecting wire (green as I recall)
is already in the wiring harness. The best location for the
switch is in the pipe carrying scavenged oil out of the engine.

How is your 911 situated for oil cooling?

Best,
Grady

[javadog]

Grady may be on to something here. The Euro Sportomatic-equipped cars did use an oil temp gauge that lacked numbers. The one I am familiar with though, had a solid white area at the lower limit of the gauge, not a white-outlined rectangle.

A look at the part number of the gauge might reveal a lot. If you have a camera handy, also take a picture of the switches below the gauges on the dash. That may tell me something.

I may have been wrong about the symbols on the 1969 gauges. The change did occur in 1969 but it may have only been in time for the 1970 model year production.

JR

[t6dpilot]

JR, I think you are right - Grady is on to something. I cannot provide part numbers or any of that kind of information as I will not be at the car until tomorrow night or maybe Thursday. The gauge is disconnected from the dash since I have had it in and out of the car to replace bulbs and repair the oil pressure input spade connector. Therefore, I can easily get the requested numbers. Also, the gauges were reported to have been rebuilt by No HW Speeo.

Grady, the gauge does have the light that you mentioned. And now that I think of it, I seem to remember that the car was a sporto because the transmission has been replaced. My memory is a little foggy on this one, but I think that is correct. Also, there is a green wire connected to that light, so I am 100% sure you are correct. The gauge is held in the dash by a bracket.

I can get the pics you requested in the next day or so. Now, your question on the bracket... I was putzing in the engine compartment and noticed these two brackets on the rear cross member that looked like they were tapped for bolts (I am not sure, but I remember them to be outboard of the shock mounts,, but I could be wrong here). I was wondering what the heck these were for since my 71 does not have them. Sporto!

I am not sure of the answer to your question on the temp sender - I will check when I am at the car again. Remember the car was built up to R Gruppe specs, so originality was not a concern. I believe he was going for driveability/performance. It is the stock oil cooler, but the car has bracketry for a front mounted oil cooler. It has a later model (?) oil tank (filler neck in front of the oil filter) and updated oil pump and pressure relief.



I found this pic from my inspection of the car before I bought it. I can see the bracket you are refering to Grady and it is inboard of the shock towers - disregard my earlier statement. You can see the what looks like a green wire going into the oil pressure sending unit. Not sure what that is and the breather hose is in the way. Also, unrelated, but the far left electrical plug on the panel that is mounted on the rear cross member - what is that for? There is not one for that connection.

Sorry for the long post and thanks to both of you for the time and help to sleuth this out for me.

[Grady Clay]

Scott,

The yellow brackets (with the electrical connections) indicate
’69 only.






The left green arrow may be a Sportomatic vacuum reservoir
mount. There should be another at the right green arrow.

More images will help.

Best,
Grady

[Cornpanzer]

Please take those plastic fuel filters off and carefully throw them as far as you can. many an engine fire due to the 99cent Napa filter cracking.

[Grady Clay]

I agree about the plastic fuel filters. Do you have the MFI filter console? If so, it can be used and you then have a circulating fuel system.

I also don’t see any hose clamps on many of the fuel connections. Please use the OE Norma-Schellen hose clamps and NOT the NAPA screw-type.

I also note an air leak where the MFI pump mount went through the fan shroud. There are suitable plastic caps for those holes. What about where the MFI injection nozzles were?

Best,
Grady

[t6dpilot]

Dave, thanks for the heads up on the filters. I will order correct ones and install. Don't want an engine fire now do we.

Grady, yes I believe that there is another bracket back there. I will check. Regarding the electrical connections, yes I knew those were for 69 only. I was wondering what that far left connection was for. MFI related maybe. As you can see the car had the MFI removed long ago. I am considering sourcing a complete MFI system just in case I want to go back to original. I currently do not have any MFI parts, so cannot hook up the circulating fuel system you mentioned. I will get some photos for you with better detail.

Good catch on the fuel line clamps - I cannot believe that I missed that! How embarassing. Anyway, I will address that ASAP. I will have to look at the holes in the shroud for the MFI bits. I am sure he did not plug them. Pardon my ignorance, but what will the plugs do, provide better engine compartment asthetics? Where do I obtain those plastic caps?

By the way, I have been meaning to provide the VIN#. It is a very early 69MY E, only #54. 119200054. Kind of cool, I think. Still trying to figure out build date.

[CurtEgerer]

Scott - Eagle Day sells the correct clamps - very $$$$, but worth it. Check Pelican first of course, but they didn't have them when I was looking a year or so ago.

http://eagleday.com/normaclamps.html