I would like to address the drag-racing issue.

Is this yellow Mustang driver some sort of villain? So the unfortunate casualties in this story had nothing to do with their own destiny? They could have backed off at any time. You chose your fights, you takes your chances.

Hey waterboy! Glad to hear your still with us! How's that short tranny bellhousing thing comming along? Now THAT car is gonna be a wheels up dragracing maniac!

I agree with old_skul.

No self respecting Porsche owner obeys all the road rules and does makes the safest choice every time.

Life is about educated decisions and calculated risks. I bought my 911 to go fast around turns, anybody can go fast in a straight line. I choose to break the speed limit everytime I drive the 911. I accept this risk and the consequences if caught.

Do I road race? Yes and no. Yes if it a worthy opponent that I feel will drive responsibly, usually Supra or BMW people who are young professionals and do not want to wreck thier car. No, if it is a young punk who will endanger thier life and mine for nothing or if it is a car who is no fun competition. Do I road race offen? Maybe three times a year and usually just a few miles and I always back off around other cars. It is fun to do on occasion and I do not feel I have endangered anybody other than myself in these events.

The problem is most people either cannot drive well or the car is not designed to handle such speed. Honda Civic's should not go 100MPH, SUVs should not go over 80MPH, and most front wheel drive cars should not attempt corners like a Porsche.

I think new drivers should have to pass some sort of autocross test to teach them how to handle a car at its limits, instead of killing themselves on the public highways. I bet there would be a decline in SUV sales if people tried them on a closed driving course in contrast to sport wagons from BMW and Audi.

Georgia is talking about putting a curfew(sp) on teens driving after 11 or 12 at night because they can hurt themselves and others. This sounds good to the PTA, but it is only treating a symptom and not curing the problem of crappy driver education. Oh, now that they are 18 they can automatically drive better after midnight, BS.



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Adrian Pillow
1979 911 SC
1966 VW Microbus
PCA - Peachstate Chapter

My views on this topic echoes that of Rarly8. Like almost everything else in life, there is a time and place for everything - street racing especially. If the roads are clear, the cops aren't there, no one is intoxicated and the opponent is willing and worthy, why the hell not? Drag racing is especially safe, I would argue that it can be safer than a spirited drive on your own down a favourite road as a) It only lasts for 15-20secs b) you are going straight down a road with a (hopefully) clear line of sight.

And what is with this attitude that Porsches are the only safe cars to speed in. Guys, this isn't 1981, it's 2001. Honda has won the F1 manufacturer's Championship a fair few times since the Civic was first introduced. Take their Integra Type R (1.8, 197bhp) - it holds group N class production car lap records all over European tracks and it would be safe to say that Turbo and Carerra RS apart, it's probably faster over a lap than any standard production car built before 1980. Time and technology has moved on...

[This message has been edited by 930fan (edited 01-11-2001).]

dtw:

"Well, that's assuming that if the person you're racing crashes his car, it's not your fault. Or is it?"

And the fact that I did turn back, call the cops, and help them out of the car, as well as me looking back on this help me not feel too guilty. I'm sure them not being hurt has something to do with it though. (just minor cuts). However I don't think I'd do the same thing again.

Don't get me wrong, I did feel pretty bad, which is the reason of looking back and reflecting. I can understand if you don't think I'll stop taking chanses like this, but I don't think I'll ever forget that feeling! Specially having my fears proven with seing headlights of a car point in the sky, that was for my eyes, not yours...

If this didn't happen, 100s of posts like this one wouldn't do to much, one has to experiance it for himself. Next time you hear somebody say "let him do whatever he wants" about a teen, there's a reason for that. Most of us will listen to you, and nod, but it comes in one ear, and out the other!
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

Actually, for most rational drivers, teenage or not, it shouldn't take witnessing such an accident!

Attending the funeral of a friend SHOULD DO IT! Or, reading the obituary of an acquaintance you talked to the day before SHOULD DO IT!Or maybe even just reading a front-page news story in a newspaper ... about a couple-of-years-younger student from your former school, SHOULD DO IT!

Or, how about viewing the corpse of a classmate at a funeral parlor ... WOULD THAT BE ENOUGH TO DO IT???

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Hey guys.. Got some sobering info for you!! In most states the statutes regarding drag racing read the same, here is the simplified version... Speed contest plus loss of life equals vehicular homicide... The drivers of both cars share the blame... Happened to a friend of mine 2yrs ago.. The jerk he was racing happened to be drunk, didn't know the road, tried to take a corner at 80mph and killed a woman and her 10yr old son... My friend abandoned the race 30 seconds before the accident but the damage had already been done... He got the same sentence as the guy who killed them... NO DRINKING!! NO COLLISION!! GUILTY ANYWAY!!
Be safe!!
Pete
77'Carrera3.0

[This message has been edited by pacmyster (edited 01-12-2001).]

Laws seldom have anything to do with what is "right" or "just". The penalty for getting caught dragracing on public streets should be put in place to protect innocent bystanders (as above). NONE of my freinds or myself has ever been in an accident during a street race. It's not luck, its common sense. The above example is perfect for demonstrating how the law takes the responsibility away from the actual person who did the damage and laid it on everyone involved. Do you have free will or not? This idiot was drunk AND stupid. May he rot in jail before hell. And what does this teach the other guy? You'd be an idiot to stop and help. Get outta there fast and hit a pay phone for 911 (so that's where the name came from). Nice message ain't it.


[This message has been edited by RarlyL8 (edited 01-12-2001).]

Early_S_Man:

Maybe those "should" do it, but how many people personally know others who've gotten hurt in a traffic accident resulting from a "race". I still go out with a few friends on friday/saturday nights to an unfinished (and closed to public) road and race. I haven't done this, but I'm there most the time to watch it. Personally I don't know one person who has gotten hurt in a traffic accident resulting from racing somebody. (I haven't, and never will drive drunk, a close friend of mine died when he was drunk though... Coincidence that I won't drive drunk? No!)

When you're a teen you think nothing will ever happen to you, and you're invincible.

Don't get me wrong, I do respect your posts, but don't tell me you know how teens think better than I do. I'm at school with them 5 days a week, most my friends are teens, and so am I!

JFI: I've written a skit to discouradge teens from driving fast/drunk at school, and had it shown on school tv, along with footage from junk yards/accident scenes.

Would I do this if a friend of mine didn't die driving drunk? If I hadn't ever witnessed an accident? If I still had a license and raced ANYBODY who came up to me? In short, probably not. That's my point, it's hard to see just how dangerous it is to speed in unsuitable places, UNLESS you see consequences first hand, or via somebody you personally knew. Most people don't know anybody who's gotten hurt racing somebody else...
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

R22, I know the Mustang driver was "in hiding " for quite a while, but I do remember hearing they found him. It happened on Chastain Road near 575. Lost control on a turn in the road, hit a 6 foot high/ 6 feet deep brick entrance sign to a church. Very long skid marks. The Z28 speedo was stuck at over 100, and this was after the skidding.
Marc

Superman ... I think you made a mistake, and spoke a little too soon ...

There are very few high schools or colleges accross this country where traffic accidents do not take one or more lives each year, and speeding or alcohol is almost always involved, but apparently not every student listens to the message! That does not mean the message is not repeated again, and again, every year ... in the obituaries and in the HEADLINES ...

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Early_S_Man:

You're repeating my exact point, "apparently not every student listens to the message!"

BTW: At my school, Needham Broughton High School, (there's more than 2000 students) there has been 5 deaths in the last 4 years that I've been attending there. None of them are traffic related...
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...

There are more accidents caused by people talking on the cell phones while driving than drunk driving accidents. Deaths, I have heard no statistics for related to cell phone usage.

We can draw from this that it is safer to drink and drive than use a handheld cell phone and drive. Statistically speaking it is not a joke. I heard a local law official say on TV that on a typical late night 10% of the people on the road are legally drunk.

From my personal experiences, I do know more people that have died from cell phone related accidents than drunk driving. Also my wife has been rear-ended 2 times by people blabbing on cell phones. I do not know anyone who has been envolved in a road racing accident.

Is there public outrage to these cell phones of destruction? No. Please go hands free if you coose to talk and drive.



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Adrian Pillow
1979 911 SC
1966 VW Microbus
PCA - Peachstate Chapter

Adrian,

The Insurance Institute just made known their statistics on cell-phone related accidents, and the rate is virtually identical to drunk driving ... for now! Unfortunately, the drunk driving rate has been declining, while the cell-phone rate is rising dramatically! Until, the law-makers do something about it ... just like stricter enforcement standards and harher penalties for drunk-driving. I can just 'see' the PSA's on the way!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Well, another topic that seems to be near and dear to most P-car owners' hearts...

If you want to push yourself and your car, go out to the middle of nowehere or find a track. Otherwise, people who think that all they have to worry about when they drive fast is themself are a danger to all of us. What about the guy who floats the stop sign that you can't see b/c your cruising along at 100 mph? Or the guy in the late '70's station wagon who tries to cross 2 lanes of traffic in front of you?

Having driven some great cars, and owning a 911 and 2000 'Stang GT, there's nothing I like better than driving fast. But I would never be stupid enough to allow myself to be goaded into drag racing some cheesy-ass mother f***er just for the sake of proving the cool quotient of me or my car. And as an attorney I can assure you that the same guy who says "I take responsibility for the risks associated with my driving" will be the first guy whose estate sues the mfr. or other driver after the accident. Like the Viper driver who missed a shift at 100 mph+ and drove off an exit ramp, and then sued Chrysler for not putting ABS on his car.

Phew - I feel 20 pounds lighter now!

Lee

Using CELL PHONES while driving is a pet peeve of mine. I have a theory:
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Most of the members of this BBS are "drivers" - we DRIVE our cars. We keep the "traffic picture" in our mind - we are aware of the cars we passed, we are aware of cars coming up on us - we are aware of cars we are overtaking - we know the road and we anticipate problems , e.g., where traffic is going to come from, etc. etc.
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I know when, on those rare occassions I must use the cell phone while driving, I lose the picture! I'm not aware of losing it until after I hang up and suddenly become aware of what traffic is doing around me - whether I've been holding someone up in the left lane, or I am approaching a group of cars going considerly slower than I am. I am always surprised that I could lose the picture so completely just by talking on the phone.
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Those folks who claim that they can talk and drive at the same time are probably lousy drivers to begin with. They don't have the traffic picture - they don't anticipate - - they just react. Talking on the cell phone just makes them all the worse.
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I've said this before - scary moments for me are when I am sandwiched in between two SUVs, with both drivers glued to their cell phones! It's happened to me more than once. And of course, in the WashDC area, we have the *******s who have their newspapers proped up on the steering wheel while driving the GW parkway or the beltway.
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Chuck

A town here in MA recently outlawed cell phones while driving. The move took lots of criticism, even by the police. They said it would be impossible to enforce. To me, I agree with the ban, but I also think there are grey areas as well. When I am sitting in traffic for 35 minutes on my way home, crawling at 10 mph, it certainly doesn't take much concentration. Driving the P car on the track or on the highway at 70 mph is a different story.
I have always been of the opinion that it really doesn't matter what laws you make, because people will always break them. The more you make, the harder it is to enforce them, and The police need to choose which ones they will focus on. 20 years ago, drunk driving wasn't a big issue, so few were caught. Now, as a response to media/public outcry, Police departments are all over it. Apparently, Cell phone usage will be next, then what? driving cars that are capable of exceeding the speed limit? Maybe it will turn into a gun control tye issue- Guns that are "assault" rifles and cars that are "racecars" will be targeted. Who knows. The only constant is this: Most people are stupid, and their even laws will not protect them (or us) from their stupidity.
HMPHHHH!

Yes. If you are actually engaging a Mercury f*cking Cougar to race and it crashes, you share in the responsibility. North Carolina General Statutes agree with me...not just my opinion.

Same logic: "I gave my friend some crack-rock and he OD'ed. But I'm a great guy cuz I called the ambulance and fished all the vomit out of his windpipe until they got there."

On a semi-related note: anytime my friend tells people he does road-course racing, they get pissed and say "That's illegal! You're going to jail!" Of course we're in the heart of Nasty-car country so no-one really knows what road course is.

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Dave
1972 911T (E motor) RSR replica project
http://members.nbci.com/dtwinters/garage/

Speaking of stupid, baseless, frivolous lawsuits ... how about the one in the early '80s in San Diego where a drunk lady driving a 930 (not hers) at 70 mph through a 20 mph zone, managed to kill herself, and the family sued Porsche, AG for selling a car with Defective Brakes!!!

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

Well, Early S Man, we're straying off the topic in lawers land. How about the thief who stoll a 928 in L.A. years ago? Cops chase him and he hits a barrier, gets out of the car and runs, but can't escape the cops because he has a broken arm. Then his atty. sues Porsche for big bucks because "air bags failed to deploy." Mark Anderson of 928 International kept that shell with the popped air bags for years until the case was settled or dropped.

dtw:

Are you feeling angry for some reason? You sure seem to be pretty willing to bash me for it!

I don't know another way to word this, "I was CHASED by a mercury (as you say) f*cking cougar", I did NOT race, or was NOT racing him.

I don't understand what's wrong with you guys, this guy came within inches of my car, and he was on the wrong side of the road while doing this. I ran off the road to avoid him!!! As I turned my head back to look at this guy, he was speeding towards my car again, so I ran!

I just don't want anybody to hit my car!

It turned out, a friend of mine owed him money, I didn't know him personally, nor did I know about the situation until he wrecked his car, and I got out of my car to help him, help the same guy who tried to run ME off the road AND hit my car...

If you think I'm guilty, I don't know what else to tell you...
Ahmet

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It's all the driver...