Just as a point of reference, I got over $600 on ebay for a LOCKED UP 2.4T motor, though it did include a tranny of unknown repair.

Often fun to let a thief wrench think you are short on experience and tall on cash, let him suggest things like 12k 3.0 rebuilds. Or in my case, this jackass wanted $350 to do an alignment on my 1987 Jetta. Then start asking pointed questions like "Gee how come the eccentric bolts YOU want to install cost $60 each when the ones I priced at the dealer only cost $1.75????" Then they make up more stupid bull and you ask more pointed questions (still acting like you know nothing about procedure). They really start to sweat.

On the flipside, it really sucks when you really don't have enough knowledge and people try to take advantage of you (and succeed). Mechanics have it best...then there's household handyman types, plumbers, HVAC, electrical...I've been burned before and it really sucks. Glad we caught this one in time. BTW, I'll install your engine for $1250 (sorry couldn't help it)

Cheers, and welcome to the family.



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Dave
1972 911T (E motor) RSR replica project
http://members.nbci.com/dtwinters/garage/

Magilla

Get another workshop/mechanic to examine your 3.0 SC engine. A second opinion is always good.

Switching to a 3.2 is tempting yes, but the problem is you never know how long a used 3.2 engine will last. At app. 60000 miles it COULD have worn top ends - depends on how it has been used and maintained. Having your current 3.0 SC engine fully restored (IF IT NEEDS IT?) might be expensive, but if you're going to keep the car for long I think it would be a good option.

However get a second opinion first! And make sure it comes from someone who is experienced with 911s.

My $0.04 worth(inflation).
Bought an immaculate '83SC CAB. with 930 S Bodywork in September. Took it to a "reputable" 911 wrench for a much needed valve adjustment. Was told there was an internal knock, they were going to tear down the engine for a "look". Gave me an appointment for October and told me not to drive the car untill then. Board members here were very helpful. They told me not to trust him. The noise is most probably a loose alternator, I think, (only under load). Bottom line have put over 2000miles on car since then and I don't even drive past the road that mechanic shop is on.

How do I get a hold of Excellence? Sounds like I should be reading it.

You can pick up Excellence at your local book store. If you are not a PCA member you should also consider that as well. Porsche Panorama is their publication, also very good.

I lock up with anger when thinking about mechanics. Our local PCA wrench will do the 3.2 swap for $1000, barring no unforseen problems. You give me $12K and I'll DRIVE to your house and install my 930 motor in your car. How's that?

As for the value of your 3.0L, your CRANKSHAFT is probably worth $700.

my sc has the same cylinder base gasket leak, ok it drips a bit of oil on the floor but I dont believe its worth a strip down to repair. Its been like this for two years now and is not getting any worse.
When I got the car my first mechanic diagnosed that a broken headstud was causing the leak. I got a second opinion from another mechanic who checked for broken studs under the valve covers, there were none broken, his advice, drive it and dont worry about the leak. That just what i've done and saved my wallet.
Bruce 83 sc

I agree with Bruce. Drive it. I believe you have a perfectly healthy SC motor.

And I got to thinking about the leaking at the cylinder base. Mine leak too, but not enough to drip. Does yours drip onto your garage floor? If so, are you SURE it is coming from the cylinder bases. Leaks in this area are usually coming from the oil return tubes. Changing all four takes maybe an hour or two, and they are not expensive.

Further, even if your cylinders bases are leaking, this would not be one of those "dynamic" leaks Warren has instructed us on. So, I doubt it would be responsible for any noticeable volume of oil loss. In other words, it is really not a problem and your car is probably jsut burning a quart of oil every two tankfuls, which is what it's SUPPOSED to do.

And finally....I know there are many types of members here. There are those with the time, experience and tools to do basically ALL theri own maintenance and repair. There are members who perform no work on their own car, ever, but want to be less than totally naive when dealing with repair shops. Of course I enjoy chatting with experienced mechanics like Warren and many others here. but I am no less thrilled to handle the problems of an owner who is at the mercy of the repair shops. I think I can speak for Warren and others in saying we LOVE to make trouble, and reduce business, for those professionals that should be put in jail for their actions and attempted actions.

Stick with us, Magilla!



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'83 SC

Superman,

I am mostly describing this leak based on th eobservations of the guy who did the pre purchase (a dealer- UGH!) and this new "mechanic". I can attest that there are no puddles of oil under the car. The bottom of the engine looks pretty crappy, however. I am confident that it isn't the oil return tubes, as the PO replaced them. I am certainly enjoying my car tremendously, but I also want to care for it properly. If this is something that needs to be addressed, I would like to do it. Sounds like this is something I can ignore, as long as I keep tabs on the oil level. I was quite happy today when I called the mechanic and told him I was not going to proceed with the work. I will hopefully be getting my PCA materials in the next few days, and I will try to do a little networking and find someone reputable!

Thanks again to everyone for your help and knowledge.

PS- Magilla IS short for Magilla Gorilla- No offense taken! http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/smile.gif

You say the PO replaced the oil return tubes? That doesn't mean they are not leaking. I can attest to that... They have to be correctly installed!
The best thing you can do is clean the engine up. Get a wire brush and a ton of engine cleaner. Make that engine sparkle(it will lower your operating temps also) and then you can make an educated guess as to where the leak is coming from.
My 3.0 has a leak on the oil return tube also, so this is a good place to look. 911's leak oil. This is a fact. My folks won't even let me park my car in their driveway anymore.
When my engine leaks it drips a little onto the heat exchangers, which can make a nice puff of smoke. Which has made a few co-commuters honk their horn. Good luck with your car, it doesn't sound bad to me. Just make sure you keep the oil topped off(check it when your car is warmed up and idling) and enjoy it. Ed

Did the PO do the return tubes himself, or did his wrench do it? You may still be pleasantly surprised. If the oil return tube seals are not installed properly, they are prone to leakage. Best bet is to degrease the bottom of the engine and try to get a look at where the new leakage develops. Might be cylinder base; might be oil return. Or any other number of places. Bottom line: the majority of these leaks that require a so-called rebuild are easy repairs that take an afternoon or so to complete. Again, good luck and keep us updated. (And enjoy the car!!)

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Dave
1972 911T (E motor) RSR replica project
http://members.nbci.com/dtwinters/garage/

Magilla,
I recently was close to being ripped off ,like yourself, by a porsche mechanic quoting $3,500 to cure a worsening oil leak!!!!
Warren and all soon put me right and after less than $1,000 Vertex Of Miami put me right. There were mutiple oil leaks and it took 2 attempts to resolve it.
Listen carefully to the BB guys as they feel passionatly about porsche's and the industry.
Also they stand to make no profit from helping you.
Best advice get a second opinion, even a third!
Other good advice which seems obvious- clean your engine well before having a close look yourself!.
Good luck
rgds Ben

Magilla,

Just to amplify what Dave said ... clean the bottom side of the engine thoroughly, first at a wand-type car wash, then follow-up with several hours on your backside underneath with brake cleaner/degreaser and rags/paper towels! Be sure to get 8 new oil-return tube O-rings and a tube of Dow Corning 111 Silicone Grease. I have seen MANY 'new' installations of such tubes and seals at a shop where, in a hurry, no attempt was made to clean the seating area for the tubes, and the result was a set of leaks just as bad or worse than before!

One final recommendation ... get a copy of Bruce Anderson's Porsche 911 Performance Handbook, and Paul Frere's Porsche 911 Story! Both are technically-oriented, excellent reads and written by men with 40+ years of Porsche experience.
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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

[This message has been edited by Early_S_Man (edited 01-05-2001).]

Just for reference, I had my 1970 911T Targa engine done for $6000.00.

Magilla
don't know you are following this thread still but Vertex of Miami do an exchange program with warrantee starting from $2,900.
May be worth looking into as an altenative to rebuilding- which may not even be neccessary as these guys are pointing out!.
hope this helps on your road to recovery!
rgds Ben

I think I am going to sit on this issue for a while. I have only had the car for a few weeks, and because of the crappy weather, I only drive it a few hours a week. I am trying to get involved in the local PCA, and will let someone with a little more experience look at it (not a mechanic). I will continue monitoring and see if I can isolate the cause myself. That way, I can TELL the mechanic what I want, and not let him try to poke me in the keester. By all accounts, I am not in any immediate danger. I will simply enjoy until the time is right to do otherwise. How reputable are places like Vertex and Motor Meister?

I am off to the bookstore to grab a copy of Excellence and the other texts Warren suggested. By the time I am done, I will have more texts on this car than I used in college! That's OK with me. I like the car more than college, anyway (except for the "extra curricular activities").

Magilla
'83 911SC Coupe

That's all correct, Magilla. In fact, if your car does not leave spots on the garage floor. you may have one of those rare 911 motors that do not leak. Has anyone heard of this? A 911 engine that does not leak? I dunno. I thought the trick was to make sure they leak CLEAN oil.

for me at least, anxiety is a product of not knowing what to do, or not being in control. As you read about Porsches and examine yours, anxiety will turn to comfort and pride. You have a nice car, it sounds, and one that is easy to maintain. Someone once said that a 911 can be one of the least expensive cars you can drive. There's a lot of truth to that.

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'83 SC

Magilla,
I've no firsthand experience with Vertex, but all reports I hear about them are great. I do know firsthand that their parts department has good stuff at great prices, and are friendly to deal with.

Motormeister shafted our "team" last year on a tranny rebuild. They ran about 3 weeks late, causing us to miss season opener. When the tranny finally came back it was of unsatisfactory performance. The only reason it was sent to them was they indicated quick turnaround. Our local wrench was too swamped to do it at the time. When we got it back from Motormeister we had to have our local wrench rebuild it again anyway. (Time no longer being an issue as we were already screwed). You will encounter many similar horror stories here w/r/t Motormeister.

You're in MA right? There's a guy north of Boston doing business as Renspeed (one N) that I've heard good things about. Consult your PCA members.

Cheers,


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Dave
1972 911T (E motor) RSR replica project
http://members.nbci.com/dtwinters/garage/

Magilla - -
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Wouldn't it be interesting to have your mechanic read this thread and provide his response or defense? He would be blown out of the water!
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I note from your profile you are located in Cambridge - I think you are joining the Northeast Region of the PCA. If you are uncomfortable for whatever reason doing work yourself, or you do not have the facilities, it's imperative that you find a good, trustworthy P-car shop. We are blessed with a number of them here in the WashDC area. I recommend you start by contacting several of the Northeast Chapter officers and Drivers Ed officials for their recommendations. (see http://www.porschenet.com/prez.html ) - or perhaps there are members on this forum who can provide recommendations for your area. Also, check out NER's calendar; there might be an event where you can go to schmooz and find out where others take their cars.
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Good Luck, and welcome to the brood!
Chuck
83SC

I myself have never had a mechanic touch my 911, except for its first alignment until I learned to do it myself. I was selling a 3.2l engine and most shops around here were quoting around $2000 to put it in an older car. They said this was mostly to adapt the electrical system from the old to the new system. It seemed crazy expensive to me but so does all mechanic work. I sold the motor with 150psi compression and 66,000 miles for $6500. The buyer had been looking for one for some time and had answered several ads from profesional and amateur sellers only to be told that they were sold or we just keep that ad running in case we get one. The buyer and I thought that this was a market price. When I have become aware of what local shops wanted for rebuilds including taking the engines in and out it has been around $8,000=$10,000 locally. I am pretty sure if I wanted to have one done I would send it to one of the engine houses in CA, If they do more of them and they have all of the equipment to do the machine work they can do it cheaper and better. I guess what I am saying is I would never use a mechanic but yours is not much worse than most.

Superman

My 84 Carrera 3.2 with 141000 kms on it DOES NOT LEAK ANY OIL AT ALL. And I use 0W-30 oil in it! So it is in fact possible... http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/wink.gif