Am i being stupid

[samsnead]

Howdy,

I am looking at an 86 M491 car, 1 owner all receipts and books, no accidents, well taken care of. The car has 180,000 miles, never had a top end or tranny rebuild, recent clutch brakes etc.

The car drives nice and tight, drives strong and shifts smoothly( for a 915). The guy wants $25k, I dont mind paying a premium because this car has been loved, but am I stupid or is that a bit high. I gotta think that a top end will be coming at some point. A relatively recent compression was between 150-165 in all cylinders.

I am trying not to be emotional about this because I do like the car, but I just cant see that being market.

What do you guys think?

[defcon65]

Seems a bit high for the mileage. For $30k you can get a real turbo. But if you really want it...

[unclebilly]

If you think it's a good deal buy it. That is more than I would spend for that car.

[samsnead]

I think its overpriced. I had hoped that the owner would be somewhat flexible but he wont budge on the price at all.

[DanielDudley]

If you keep in touch and it doesn't sell, he may come down.

[BeyGon]

Originally posted by DanielDudley
If you keep in touch and it doesn't sell, he may come down.

It may seem high now, but when someone else buys it how will you feel. I paid a little more for my car than I wanted but one year later I am still not unhappy about it.

[porsche930dude]

definatly sounds like too much for that many miles

[KTL]

Sure a M491 is a desirable car. But 180K is sometimes tough to minimize it's influence on the car. Look at it this way, the same car in Carrera form would demand, what, $14K maybe? I for one don't think the M491 demands that big of a price jump for 930 flares and brakes. But nobody died and left me the M491 market expert either.

Some other things to use as bargaining points:

-How does the suspension look as far as bushings go? You say it's tight but drive a car, if possible, with fresh suspension stuff to be able to compare better

-Any oil consumption numbers provided? Compression can be good but worn valve guides can still use oil

-Has it all been basic maintenance besides the clutch? If so it sounds like the car has been a long-driver which is a good thing. But still, age items like brake hoses, caliper seals, master cylinder, DME sensors, CHT sensor, etc. etc. add up if you have to do them soon.

It's good you're aware of the emotion. Don't let it get the best of you. I stewed over missing a '85 M491 with Ruf treatment (wheels, muffler, dunno what else- it was gone before I could even look at it too much) that some guy I was talking to at a dealer had flown into Chicago just to look at this car. Which was not immaculate, but decent. I figured this guy came all the way from MN so he's gotta be going home with it. He inquired a ton of things from a friend and I since we appeared to be grease monkey "experts" (little did he know what knuckleheads he was talking to) who were there buying parts for our own cars. We were pretty amused that we basically influenced this guy to buy the car after nothing but a test drive.

I had bought my car a month earlier and was already taking the thing apart instead of enjoying it. It bothered me a long time "missing" that M491 with Ruf wheels until I finally learned to subscribe to the fact that something else always comes along and nothing is always as nice as you may think.

Good luck. Think it over for a while. Something better may just come along.........

[SP2]

That is too much for an 180,000 mile car. I would get your own PPI, not one that the owner paid for, and factor that in to the counter offer. If he still doesn't budge, walk away. It is that easy. I agree, another car will come along before you know it. (Or maybe it will come after you pay 25k and you will kick yourself. )

[fly4val]

BeyGon.....me too but smile every day whether I'm driving it or not...

I paid 26 for my '88 Carrera, never wrecked or repainted and no rust in silver and burgudy....had 96k on the clock; the price included $3k consignment fee for the dealer....

[DonMo]

Too much, you can do better. There is always a next one.

[PorschePilot]

You need to look at the selling price other like type cars for sale to make your decision. You can go back to the seller with the data and let him see what market value is.

[samsnead]

The car has been taken care of, has thorough service records, although I would never buy anything without a PPI. I found consistent compression tests in the service history, those were the latest numbers, but they are about 7,000 miles old.

I had thought that the car will need a top end down the road, and at that time I would put in some more agressive cams etc. At that point the car would be a keeper. In my head I had put the car at 20K before I saw it, and now I would pay 22K. That is probably a bit on the high side, but there arent a ton of these cars and it has been taken care of with documented history. I think 25K ,ay be on the high side, and the owner doesnt seem to want to move on the price. Just don't know

[Zeke]

If it were anything but an M491 you could be more lax about snatching it up. I don't know about the pricing, but when will you get a chance to see another? There just aren't too many to choose from.

[KTL]

Top end work isn't cheap

>rocker shafts $18 x 12
>rocker bushings $29 installed x 12
>RSR shaft seals $4 x 24
>Loctite 574 $20
>top end gasket kit $200
>head work $500
>valve guides $6 avg. x 12
>valves if worn beyond spec like mine at 78K miles $27 exh. x 6 plus $18 int. x 6
>misc items discovered need replacing "while in there" doing the work $300
>can't count the cams ($275 DC20 regrind), chip remap ($500 Steve Wong), performance valve springs ($200) into your future plans though. Point being those upgrades add up quick when playing engine builder.

~$2000 total above is just parts and some rocker, head assembly labor. What about actual teardown and reassembly? Call it $3500 to $4000 parts and labor if a shop does it (and you supply the parts = bad practice). Price starts coming down on the car if you can confirm the top end is warranted.

This exercise is similar to the std. rule of thumb of buying someone else's race car. Don't do it yourself, but buy someone else's completed project. Same in this case. IF you can get someone else's expense of a new clutch, top end, trans. rebuild, brake "upgrade", etc.? You make out like a bandit.

Documented the history it may be, but what does that entail? Like others said, 180K miles is a lot of miles. These cars are super durable, but still do wear out things as the miles build. A 3.2 L can very likely need countershaft bearings at that mileage. But then again all of 'em eat countershaft bearings so...... Any way you look at it, it is a crapshoot. A PPI is nice but it's not an all-knowing revealer of things in need of repair. The car is 21 years old and things will wear out and break. That's just life.

[samsnead]

Thanks for the info guys.

[onebad911]

sam, if you like it go for iti just bought my m491 and paid $28,500 for it 1984 coupe--im second owner have all the original documentation and service records after looking for months for my first 911 i knewit was the car for me and yes i did think it was a bit over priced i fell in love with it and bought it she has 69.000 miles on itand if i have any questions the po is always willing to help me anyway he can i had it for 2 weeks and i was already offerd $30,000 for it.............lifes too short go with your heart..phil

[Jeff Alton]

I had an 86 M491 back in 87. I paid bottom dollar for it and got offered above top dollar for it 3 months later. I sold it. I still have pictures of it on my garage wall. It was a great car.

I made 8k on it in 3 months back in 87. Why? Because for some folks there is no better Porsche in their mind. Is it unique? You bet, but it really is only valuable to the few that crave it. If you are one of these people that "need" one, then buy it. But do not modify one single thing on it if you want to keep it attractive to the next owner who "needs" one too.

If you just like the look, but a modified car (turbo bodied) or a real turbo.

Cheers

[Jeff Alton]

I had an 86 M491 back in 87. I paid bottom dollar for it and got offered above top dollar for it 3 months later. I sold it. I still have pictures of it on my garage wall. It was a great car.

I made 8k on it in 3 months back in 87. Why? Because for some folks there is no better Porsche in their mind. Is it unique? You bet, but it really is only valuable to the few that crave it. If you are one of these people that "need" one, then buy it. But do not modify one single thing on it if you want to keep it attractive to the next owner who "needs" one too.

If you just like the look, but a modified car (turbo bodied) or a real turbo.

Cheers

[samsnead]

all good points