Sway bars for dummies...

[Christien]

A friend has offered to sell me his torsion and sway bars from his 86 Carrera to put in my 72 911. I've done some reading about sizing, etc. but it all seems to assume a basic knowledge, of which I have none! So can someone just point out anything I'm missing, or might be doing stupid, or anything?

The torsion bars are 19 and 23, and I don't know the size of the sway bars. They're stock from his 86 Carrera. My car has, as far as I know, the original torsion bars and no sway bars, either front or rear. I replaced the shocks with Bilstein sports (front and rear) a year and a half ago, and I have a camber strut brace in the front trunk. I think it's a Weltmeister (there was a sticker on it when I bought the car 3 years ago which has since fallen off). It's got the horizantal piece between the 2 strut towers, and also two diagonal rods that attach to the trunk floor above the smuggler's box.

The car is used for about 80/20% street vs. track, with RA1s for track use, but no other major modifications (and none intended).

His suggestion was to just do the sway bars for now, which I tend to agree with, as it seems like a much more straight-forward installation compared to the torsion bars. I will (presumably) have to buy all the mounting hardware for the sways.

Thoughts?

Thanks!
Chris

[tonythetarga]

For starters, the stock torsion bars from an 86 Carrerra should be 19mm front and 25mm rears. Your fronts are either an 18 or 19mm anyway so not much to gain there.
I think you want to hear more from the guys with the early cars for how to put the later parts on.
As far as sway bars go, the early cars will readily accept the through the body style sway bar that they were designed for. I don't believe your a-arms will have tabs to fit the Carrera style bar or the mounts near the steering rack. The bars might be cheap, but the fitment may not be, especially of you have to replace a-arms etc. Apparently the rears can be made to work with the correct drop links. (not certain though)
EDIT: you might want to check with Ernie at Mantis Racing in Oakville. I also believe he has front through the body sway bars and rear adjustable sways for the early car.

[Christien]

Hey Tony, thanks for the tips. I'll be at Mantis tomorrow so I'll ask while I'm there.

Will even a car that never had through-the-body bars still take them? If I have to replace A-arms and whatnot, then it's definitely not worth it.

[tonythetarga]

All the classic 911 tubs were stamped with the piece that can be drilled out for a through the body sway bar that the early cars had. If you look inside the trunk at the metal inner fender area behind the gas tank you will see a triangular stamped outline of where the through the body sway bar goes. It is just a matter of removing the gas tank, drilling the holes out and installing the bar.

[TRE Cup]

Actually all early cars up to 1974 had the holes and threaded inserts on the chassis , whether it had sway bars installed or not.
If your car did not have sway bars fitted at the factory, the car would still have the U tabs on the lower control arms and with the removal of the cover plates in each wheel well; you are exposing where a thru body install goes.
The rear was a different matter;
Not all chassis had the rear mounts welded in the chassis when they left the factory. You can a) buy weld on mounts from our host b) buy weltmeister u bolt/plate adaptor kit (no welding required) from our host c) reinforce the original mounts back there if fitted at the factory.
Now as to your friend's free sway bars. Fugetaboutit with regards to the front.
On the rear, You will need to weld in a mount support on the control arms to connect the drop links from bar to control arms if the ball pins are not on your arms. If your arms do have ball pins, then a mix marriage of early pop on cup link and later drop links need to be fabbed up. Make sure those areas get reinforced as well.
On the body bar mounts, if your car does not have them AND you are using the free rear bar, then get a pair of later model rear bar mounts '78 up to weld on. This way you can use the clamps and rubber bushes from the free bar.

DO NOT install just a rear bar!! Get the correct corresponding diameter for the front so you have a balanced system

No advantage of using your friend's front torsions unless yours are worn/ damaged- same size fronts on all 65-89 911 (19mm)
The back (25 mm vs 23)mm-yours is a nice upgrade w/o getting too stiff

[Zeke]

Originally posted by Christien
A friend has offered to sell me his torsion and sway bars from his 86 Carrera to put in my 72 911.

Thoughts?

Thanks!
Chris

Unless the price is really cheap, I'd let it go. As has been pointed out, the front t-bars are useless to you. The thru-the-body sway bar is preferred over what he has. Now you're down to two items. Given the shocks you bought, I'd suggest 21-26 or 22-27 unless you are running 8's on the back with flares (then I'd ask the pundits about 28's). 19mm sway bars are a nice upgrade.

I had 21/26 with 19mm sways (x2) and Koni Sports on a '71 with 15 x 7's all around (the size of wheels and tires is important to note when selecting sways and t-bars. Very nice all around, good traveling car, yet it stayed pretty square on the track. It wouldn't have been a setup for all out racing, but a nice cafe racer blend.

Listen to Dave (TRE cup), he has probably built or tuned more track worthy cars than anyone.

[DavidPorter]

I have a '72 T with the front mounting plates and U-tabs from the factory but no sway bars. I am running 15 x 6 and will be driving mostly on the street with an occasional DE thrown in. Would adding just a 19mm front bar be worthwhile, or should I do both ends? Shock type is up in the air, they will be replaced soon.

Thanks.

[Christien]

Dave and Milt, thanks for the tips - tons of good info there, and I think this project is certainly above my head for now, at least insofar as DIY. The point of this was to be a low-cost upgrade ($300 for the bars and then whatever mounting hardware I'd need) but it looks like it'll be a lot more involved than that, if I were to go through with it.

FTR Milt, yes, I'm running 8s in the rear - the car has SC flares - halfway to an RS clone. (7x15 in front, 8x15 rear)

I don't necessarily *need* the upgrade right now - I'm only in my 3rd season of DEs, but I'm driving as much as I can and am noticing some of the limitations of my car. I started dealing with suspension stuff on the advice of an instructor who knows vintage 911s well and felt some unsteadiness in the car on track, hence the new shocks, however those plus RA1s made a massive difference, and I'm fairly happy with how the suspension feels right now. So if this is going to cost 2-3x as much as the price of the bars, it's simply not worth it, when I think of where else that cash could go!

Thanks again!

Chris

[911pcars]

My '69 was originally equipped with none of those modern conveniences, and it handled like .... poorly. 165/70-15 tires didn't help.

I started by adding the factory sway bars (16/15mm or something like that), then eventually 21/27 and larger bars (20/19mm).

The torsion bar upgrade took a few years to accept because I feared it would be too much of a compromise in ride quality. I was mistaken. Large sway bars have a greater influence on the jiggle factor than the suspension spring rate, and larger torsion bars firm up the ride without introducing the jolt factor.

I suggest having all done at the same time. Don't forget equivalent shocks, reducing the ride height and a 4-wheel alignment. You can hold off on corner balancing until you replenish the coffers.

Sherwood

[DaddyGlenn]

I would be happy to take your friend's sway bars off his hands. I happen to be in the market for sway bars from an 86-89 carrera.

[911 Rod]

Hey Guys,
I'm the one trying to help Chris improve his car.
I just upgraded to Saunder 22/29 torsion bars and 23mm SR ARB.
Makes me smile just thinking about it.
Anyway.
Fronts. My plan was not to go through the body, but mount to the skid plate holes as the 86. We will need to weld the u brackets to the control arms.
Rears. I don't know if Chris has the drop links on his trailing arms. If he doesn't, we're toast. If yes, I have the body brackets which will need to be welded on.
If my plan is correct, Chris will only need to by the u brackets for the front and some welding.
I need to look at his car first.
This is stock from my 86 and the 4 pieces work well together.
BTW I also want wings and beer!
Thanks
Rod

[911pcars]

The consensus might be to use sway bars with adjustable drop links. The fixed drop links (none actually with the underbody type) change corner balance if you make slight variations in corner heights. And you may want to balance the chassis corners at some point.

Sherwood

[bkreigsr]

under body mounting will be difficult at best.
the update in 74 changed the mounting hardware around the rack and pinion to include aluminum tabs linking the body to the rack and supporting the sway bar bushing clamps.

Bill K

[DaddyGlenn]

Man, that really sounds like a huge hassle. It would probably be better to forget the whole thing and send the sway bars to me.

[911 Rod]

Originally posted by DaddyGlenn
Man, that really sounds like a huge hassle. It would probably be better to forget the whole thing and send the sway bars to me.

I'm listening.

[DaddyGlenn]

Originally posted by 911 Rod
I'm listening.

PM Sent

[Zeke]

Originally posted by Christien


FTR Milt, yes, I'm running 8s in the rear - the car has SC flares - halfway to an RS clone. (7x15 in front, 8x15 rear)

I'm glad that came out, because the cantilever effect of wider wheels works to soften a t-bar. So, the ratio of F to R sizes changes, bringing a need for a heavier rear bar to balance the suspension. Not to be confused with balancing the car.

I have to say, and agree with Sherwood (always), that the right shock and t-bar combination will make the car a dream to drive even at much stiffer rates. I feel that currently you have too much shock for your bars, especially since you apparently are still using 23's on the rear with those 8" wheels. You need to do something in my estimation.

[911 Rod]

In case you haven't figured it out, this is Chris's current set up.
He has stock 72 torsion bars with NO sways and SPORT Bilsteins.
I would think he is basically riding around on his shocks as they are very stiff. He is also getting banging when he hits a bump which is really bad.
My offer to put in my torsion bars/sway bars was because I felt anything would be an improvement.
Just trying to help as he is spending a lot of time at the track and going faster every day.