Brake Job... Tips, Tricks, Traps?

[tcesar888]

Hello Everyone!

I have a '78 Targa (stock), and want to perform a brake job. I don't have the budget to do a “big brake” upgrade so I'm cool with working within the OE parameters. Here is what I'm looking at (see below). I'm open to any and all suggestions?

What I plan to buy:

1.) Rotors (F/R)
2.) Braided brake lines
3.) Pads
4.) Pad Clips
5.) Caliper Rebuild Kits
6.) Brake Fluid
7.) Caliper paint (Red?)

Questions:

A.) Is there anything else I need?
B.) Any specialized tools required? (I already have a brake bleeder pump)
C.) Should I replace my wheel bearings at the same time?
D.) Recommendations on braided lines?
E.) Recommendations on Pads?
F.) Recommendations on fluid? Amount needed?
G.) Rebuilding the calipers; are there any tips, tricks or traps?
H.) Recommendations on painting the calipers
I.) Should I buy new caliper bleeder fitments?
J.) Finally, is there any other logical task I should perform while I'm doing this project?

Thanks again again again again in advance!

Tom

[toddu]

A.) Is there anything else I need?

B.) Any specialized tools required? (I already have a brake bleeder pump)
Make sure you get a set of flare wrenches. Some of the connections on the lines will be VERY tight, and you'll want the extra grip of the flare wrench.

C.) Should I replace my wheel bearings at the same time?
Have they ever been replaced? Several sides of the camp on this. Some say replace only if they are needed, but at least repack them. Others say they are cheap enough, so replace them. If you take them out and clean them, you sould be able to tell if they need replacing. If not, repack and put back.

D.) Recommendations on braided lines?
If going braided, the common suggestion is getting the "DOT" approved. Little more expensive, but the problem with braided is now you can't see the condition of the rubber (yes, rubber is still there) hose.
E.) Recommendations on Pads?
F.) Recommendations on fluid? Amount needed?
G.) Rebuilding the calipers; are there any tips, tricks or traps?
H.) Recommendations on painting the calipers
I.) Should I buy new caliper bleeder fitments?
J.) Finally, is there any other logical task I should perform while I'm doing this project?
While you're in there, you might as well go with monoballs, ER polybronze bushings, maybe torsion bars...... JUST KIDDING!!! Seems like any project is a slippery slope with these "toys"

[Christien]

What bleeder pump have you got? Is it suction or pressure? I've got the Motive pressure bleeder and I think it's the best invention ever. Even with speed bleeders it took me forever to do a crappy bleed, now with the Motive it takes me under 90 min, including jacking the car, removing and replacing wheels and cleanup, and I've got a great pedal feel, even at the track.

As for fluid, it depends what your uses are. For regular daily driving, even spirited, any DOT 4 is fine (forget DOT 3). For track driving, I use ATE Superblue for its higher boiling temp. I can't remember how much you need, but I get two bleeds out of a 1 litre can of superblue.

[rusnak]

wait a second, why are you going to rebuild your brakes? Are they sticking? Car pulling to one side?

If the brakes are working well, then leave em alone. Change the brake fluid to ATE Super Blue or a comparable fluid. Pelican also sells ultra high performance brake pads. I think they're like $600 per pair or something like that. I am going to buy a set the next time I need new rotors.

[01sport]

If you are rebuilding your calipers get new bleeder valves. You can waste a lot of time and brake fluid trying to bleed a system with a bad bleeder valve. I've had good luck with "speed bleeders".

[JK-81SC]

Sounds like you have a good plan started. When I did my brakes a few years ago, I did about the same amount of work as you are planning. My brakes were is bad shape, so I knew I needed a major overhaul. You can save money if you inspect and measure parts before you buy.

I used all new OEM parts and I was very satisfied with the end result. I did a lot of research using the search function and carefullly read all of the tech articles.
Tech articles

Ditto on the flare wrench recommendation. You'll strip the nuts without them. I had to soak the brake line nuts with PB Blaster overnight to get mine off. I bought OEM brake pads, and they've been great. I use the car for road only, no racing. I used the ATE blue fluid. I think I bought two cans of the ATE blue fluid.

I used a pressure bleeder to get 99% of the air out, but I didn't get the hard pedal feel I wanted. Once I followed the pressure bleed with pumping the pedal and bleeding with the help of an assistant I got the solid pedal feel.

I cleaned and repacked the bearings, I didn't need new ones.

Tricks:
Make the a 20 degree gauge using cardboard. Easy with a protractor and an x-acto knife.

Read the instructions carefully to avoid smashed fingers when you remove the caliper pistons.

Buy the 101 projects book if you don't have one yet.

Other parts:
I also replaced the master cylinder, but you might find a rebuild kit instead of buying a new one.

[SCWDP911]

sub'd

[rusnak]

if you MUST break (disconnect) the brake lines, then you'll have to bleed the brakes. The Motiv bleeder works about half the time in one shot. The other half of the time you'll still need to 2-man bleed the brakes using the brake pedal.

Buy a quart of cheapo Carquest dot 4 brake fluid. Bleed your system with this junk fluid, then change over to the primo expensive ATE Super Blue after you have all of the air bubbles out. I buy a few yards of flexible clear hose at Orchard Supply Hardware, and put one end in a glass jar with a hole punched in the lid. Keep the outlet end submerged under the old brake fluid to keep the air from getting back into your brake system.

Last, when working on brakes, NEVER use a large amount of force to re assemble ANYTHING. These parts are all precision machined, and they fit together very well. If you have to force it, then you're doing something wrong.

OK, I think I saved some people a few hours of frustration. At least I hope so.

[Eric Coffey]

Originally posted by tcesar888

B.) Any specialized tools required? (I already have a brake bleeder pump)

If it's a pressure bleeder (Motive type), then don't forget to crimp the overflow line before you pressurize the system.

[Christien]

Originally posted by rusnak
The Motiv bleeder works about half the time in one shot. The other half of the time you'll still need to 2-man bleed the brakes using the brake pedal.

Wow, I'm surprised to hear you say this. I've been using the Motive now for 2 years and have never needed to do the 2-man bleed with the pedal. I do go around usually at least twice, if not 3 or 4 times, and pump the brakes myself in between each round to try to move things around in there in case there's any air still in there. But each time, I've had no problems, and this is bleeding before track events, so I'm definitely putting the brakes (and my bleeding abilities) to the test. Maybe it's just because I do it so frequently. (probably at least 4 or 5 bleeds per season)

[azasadny]

Just did my front brakes last Saturday and we had to replace the inner and outer bearings, check your carefully. not expensive to replace, but you have to get them out and press the new ones in without gouging them. We also replaced the front struts as I had already replaced the rear shocks previously.

[Monza_dh]

I just did all of this a few months ago. Take your time and follow Waynes book and the manuals and you will be set. I didn't need to buy any special tools and only had a hard time geting my old rotors to seperate from the hubs. Once I got them off I had my hubs blasted and they look great.

Did the old "hubs on the gas grille trick" to set the bearings and now everthing is rock solid.

I disconnected the lines and flushed the system and used a $29 vacuum pump from Autozone to bleed. Nailed it on the first go round and have a solid pedal with no issues at all.

good luck, you just saved $$$ doing it your self

[JB36]

One liter of brake fluid should be enough. I bought two and only used one, but then again I already had new super blue in the lines. I chickened out and sent my calipers our for rebuild since it only cost me 65 per. I would do the wheel bearings while your in there replacing the rotors. I didn't and my right front need to be replaced not long after re-installing the calipers. I had to pull of the caliper and re-bleed all over again. The bearings and grease are cheap enough.

As for tools a small propane torch may come in handy. The flare nut on the right rear hard line was seized and I twisted the line. The line was cheap to replace though

[dweymer]

when re-installing the calipers, make sure the bleed nipple is UP.

[Wil Ferch]

I would vote for the cheap but very effective "gravity" bleeding method. All you need is a $1.00 length of tygon tubing and a receiving container. Yes..slow...but you avoid any chance of goofing up the MC seals...since you won't be pumping past the normal range of travel. You can work on other parts of the brake work and keep an eye on the MC level while gravity bleeding.

I also chamfer all the edges of the new brake pads with a rasp or file, to avoid squealing. Also use acrylic/aluminum backing pads ( sticks on the backside of the brake pad) to avoid squealing. Available through your local car parts store usually under the "Help" brand name label. This works better than the "goop" they sell since he goop tends to pull out the dust seals the next time the pads are replaced.

+1 on the flare nut wrenches...a "must"

Don't go braided steel brake lines.....look at some new rubber lines..visualize the hole size vs wall-thickness size and THEN tell me that rubber is no good because it is "spongy" or can "expand" under application pressure. No way....

- Wil

[tcesar888]

MAN, THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I LOVE THIS FORUM. THE COMRADERY IS AWSOME!!!!!!

I so much appreciate all the priceless information and experiences…

BTW, the bleeder tool I have is by MotionPro; it “sucks” fluid. Should I get something else?

Thank you!

Tom

[RWebb]

yes, get rubber ones - many posts on this

the sucking power bleeders work ok, If new, I'd return it and build a cheap prssure bleeder from a garden sprayer

gravity is fine but slower

do a search as many threads exist on your questions

AND don't put too much force on the tiny bleeder screws

good luck

[SWISSMADE]

A quick word of advice, if you rebuild your calipers or even if you get someone else to do it for you, make sure the through bolt nuts are torqued to spec. I had mine "professionally" rebuilt and one caliper leaked immediately over my new Ferodo brake pads.. the nuts were barely finger tight.

Good luck, Mike

[tcesar888]

Originally posted by SWISSMADE
A quick word of advice, if you rebuild your calipers or even if you get someone else to do it for you, make sure the through bolt nuts are torqued to spec. I had mine "professionally" rebuilt and one caliper leaked immediately over my new Ferodo brake pads.. the nuts were barely finger tight.

Good luck, Mike

Thanks Mike! I'll watch for that.

I'm reviewing all the excellent feedback and recommendations (above). I have rebuilt calipers on a motorcycle (race bikes), but not for a car as yet. I'm mentally preparing for the worst. Interestingly enough, each project (even the most menial) is never what I plan for. I somehow end up opening up a can of worms and or making things worse. But I guess its all in the fun! Right? Creative problem solving....

Mahalo!

Tom

[qcwang]

Have Fun Tom! This was my experience a few years back!
Newbie Brake Job- My Tips to other Newbie DIYers