Modern Car with Raw Fun Factor?

[randywebb]

This recent thread (How many of you regret changing from an older 911 to a 993?)
plus many other comments here, in Excellence and various other places leads to the question:

Can a modern car be made that still has that raw feel that we admire in the older 911s?

If so, what would be required?

______________________________

I'd say that Porsche (or Lotus, or Honda or Miata) could come pretty close.

It would require tires that aren't too wide, and light wt.

The engine needs to be somewhere behind the driver, of course...

[Dantilla]

Lotus Elise?

[randywebb]

The 911 to 993 Regrets thread quoted above lists things like:

- seat-of-the-pants feel
- light, nimble, uncivilized
- raw

Some of it seems to be the feedback to the driver.


There is also the question of whether you can have fun in a modern sports car at sane speeds on a public road -- i.e. are they now just too good...

[Dantilla]

One thing that would be required is a manufacturer to put lots of effort into a project knowing there will be not much, if any, profit.

Most car buyers want all the cushy things like nav systems, cup holders, ten-speaker stereos, yada yada...

A bare-bones car with raw characteristics would have a very small, but very rabid, group of buyers. It would have very low sales numbers.

Unfortunately.

[the]

Originally posted by randywebb

If so, what would be required?

The biggest thing, IMO, for a car to be fun to drive, is light weight.

To me, once a car starts to push 3000 lbs, it is no longer much fun to drive over the long term, no matter how much power it has.

And if a car can be very close to 2000 lbs, it is fun even with 100 hp.

[gumba]

Superformance Daytona Coupe.

[Doug&Julie]

Originally posted by the
The biggest thing, IMO, for a car to be fun to drive, is light weight...

Agreed. As someone who's gone back and forth between "new" and "old", the biggest difference has always been that light feel, regardless of hp. While Boxsters have uber-responsive steering and (relatively) go kart like handling, there's no getting away from the fact that it still 3k lbs. You just can't "engineer out" weight unless you actually engineer out weight.

Removing "luxuries" will go a long way, but in the end I think that engineering has to start well into the chassis...and in this day and age of safety needs, I don't see it happening. Not to the point where "we" would like them to be.

[Scott Clarke]

Ariel Atom.

[AtomicDog]

Dantilla wrote:

Lotus Elise?

I see your Elise, and raise you one undercooked Exige S.





Chris

[Jeff Alton]

Randy, go for a rip in an Elise or Exige. I was laughing out loud for the 20 mins that I wailed on one the other day. It is as tight as my 911 (which has no rubber anywere in the suspension $$$) and had great feedback from the controls-which is one reason I love 911's.

I could not believe it was a prduction car.

Cheers

[Zeke]

Originally posted by the
The biggest thing, IMO, for a car to be fun to drive, is light weight.

To me, once a car starts to push 3000 lbs, it is no longer much fun to drive over the long term, no matter how much power it has.

And if a car can be very close to 2000 lbs, it is fun even with 100 hp.

That's it in a nutshell. I realized that only yesterday (well, I knew somewhat what I was getting into because I had a '77 for 15 years). But, the low mass 901 tranny and mag case 2.2 or 2.4 (2.7 RS, too!), no impact bumpers, etc. make for a fun car. Make no mistake, I'm happy with the Carrera and looking forward to moving up the air cooled line when I can.

Randy, I think if a Carrera owner like me could somehow remove something like 4-500 lbs., the car would come slap freakin' alive. I'll probably get half of that off because I'm just not that dedicated anymore. Oh, and a final gear ratio change would do big time wonders even though the 3.2 Motronic ain't no MFI, snap-your-head, high winding hot rod.

[911pcars]

As Scott says; Ariel Atom

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaWoo82zNUA&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2DGfisAndI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfvuBFDfGbU&mode=related&search=

...and what not to do with your Ariel Atom:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYqsNW3bzjw&mode=related&search=

Sherwood

[Jack Olsen]

Those Lotuses (Loti?) ate a blast to drive. They're nowhere near as fast as they feel, but they're a lot of fun.

[randywebb]

So... we all agree on light wt.

What about the raw, uncivilized _FEEL_ of the car?
- I interpret that to mean that there is more feedback to the driver --even if it is bad feedback (i.e. kick-back over bumps is better than nothing at all).

[Jeff Alton]

The weighting of the controls in the Elise is beautiful. The car talks to you throught the seat of your pants, just like my 911 does. That makes it easy to drive hard.

Jack is right, not as fast as it feels, but it also never felt like it would bite me either.

The only problem with an Elise is getting in when the roof is on, and I am only 5'11".....

Cheers

[ZAMIRZ]

Lotus Elise
Mazda Miata
MINI Cooper S R53 (not bad for a FWD)
Ariel Atom
Carrera GT
911 GT3-RS
Ferrari 360CS
C6 Corvette Z06
Viper

[pwd72s]

Originally posted by ZAMIRZ
Lotus Elise
Mazda Miata
MINI Cooper S R53 (not bad for a FWD)
Ariel Atom
Carrera GT
911 GT3-RS
Ferrari 360CS
C6 Corvette Z06
Viper

Other than the Lotus and the Mazda, this is a list of over 3,000 pound porkers...Ariel atom? Whazzat?

(Not that I'm looking for another fun car...once you get bored with owning a '72S, it's all over...time to die, car wise.)

[ZAMIRZ]

Originally posted by pwd72s
Other than the Lotus and the Mazda, this is a list of over 3,000 pound porkers...Ariel atom? Whazzat?

(Not that I'm looking for another fun car...once you get bored with owning a '72S, it's all over...time to die, car wise.)

The MINI just barely squeaks in as well, but you can't call +3,000 pounds a "porker" anymore, there aren't many cars that can sell in N. America that can squeak in under that weight with modern safety features (airbags, crumple zones, etc.) and tech toys like integrated phone, navigation, etc. I would implore you to go drive a Carrera GT or Viper and then come back with the porker bit with your bowels still in your body.

Ariel Atom, basically a skeleton with a Honda engine out back. It'll blow the doors off any modern supercar up to 120 mph.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaWoo82zNUA

I hope this does not come off as an insult, but a stock '72S with those tall sidewall tires and measly hp isn't exactly raw. Sure it's under 3000 pounds, but so is a Ford Aspire.

[GrantG]

Originally posted by pwd72s
Ariel atom? Whazzat?

www.arielatom.com

[JP911]

Honda S2000