Upgrading brake system

[Elfer]

Hi all. Im upgrading my SC brakes to larger calipers and drilled rotors. Any suggestions as far as applications are concerned? I know big reds are very popular, but what about 930 brakes? Ive even heard of 944T brakes on 911 and 928GT systems. Can someone shed a light on this for me? Please include applicable years and mods necessary to fit these systems. Any help/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance. Also if anyone is selling a system or know of someone who is, please post a reply as well.

[emcon5]

Read Bill Verburg's reply here:
http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/Forum3/HTML/014921.html

Looks like he sums it up pretty well.

Tom

------------------
82 911SC Coupe

[averyhabbott]

If you don't mind me asking, what did you end up going with for the brakes on your SC?

[89911]

Look for Carrera rotors/calipers. Cheap, easy bolt on.

[averyhabbott]

I was hoping that I would be able to get the calipers off of a 97-04 Boxster to fit on my 1980 SC, but I haven't been able to get any replies saying whether or not this would work.

[Bill Verburg]

Have you tried search?

There are dozens of threads about that.

Short answer is, yes, but why would you?

[averyhabbott]

'cause from looking at them and what they're capable of, the 97-04 boxster brakes are cheap but good. They seem to be plenty powerful calipers with moderately priced pads and rotors that, when combined with the cross-drilled rotors that our host offers for sale, makes a decent package for ~$2000, or half what a Brembo upgrade would cost.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally posted by averyhabbott
'cause from looking at them and what they're capable of, the 97-04 boxster brakes are cheap but good. They seem to be plenty powerful calipers with moderately priced pads and rotors that, when combined with the cross-drilled rotors that our host offers for sale, makes a decent package for ~$2000, or half what a Brembo upgrade would cost.

There is lots of stuff that looks good but doesn't work any better.

Why do you want to change you brakes?

If it's bling, call TRE and order a full set of Boxsters for your car.

[averyhabbott]

Bill,

My brakes are old, it's time for new. Even with just the usual repeated braking, I can feel the fade over 30 minutes of driving, and I do much more than that everyday. When considering an upgrade, I want a performance upgrade, but don't see why I should compromise in looks while I'm at it. Call me crazy, but it would follow logic that performance brakes from 1997 would out-do performance brakes from 1984. The braking world might not have gone through as many changes as the engine world has, but it still has seen many improvements over the years. Also, since the Boxster comes with larger wheels than the older Carrera did, I figured that the brakes would be larger as well. Granted, I am TRYING to shove these under my 16" Fuchs, but I forsee an upgrade to 18" replicas pretty soon, anyway. These 16" rims ride pretty well, but there's something to be said for low-profile tires. So anyway, to sum it up, there are only four things I'm trying to figure out here.

1.) Will the calipers/rotors from the 1997-2004 Boxsters bolt on to my 1980 911SC?

2.) Will they out-perform the brakes from a 1984 Carrera?

3.) Will I have to upgrade my master cylinder, brake booster, or reservoir? and

4.) What will I need to do to maintain operation of the parking brake?




Noah,

I DID search the forums. I've read numerous articles on upgrading brakes, but it doesn't seem like anyone has gone the route that I'm considering, and I'm curious why. And for future reference, people will think you're less of a dick if you offer advice instead of whining and criticism.

[RWebb]

Logic alone is not enough -- you also need some facts. Unless you get ceramic brakes (not yet made for our old cars) there will be no real improvement with newer brakes.

What about your brakes is "old"? The pads? The FLUID??? (I hope not). The rubber hoses?

- Those are the things to change.

- There have been problems with the search engine, but I do not understand how you could miss all the literally dozens of threads on doing exactly what you have outlined - not posts, but threads.

- Noah is no doubt reacting to the "clogging of the air waves" by people who don't use the search engine before posting a very common query. Today's strut brace query is another one - dozens of threads if not hundreds... I'm sure it didn't bother him as much for the first decade...

Anyway - if you add thermal + mass to your terms that will give you one good set of results.

Then - take those 2 out and add brake torque to read up on those threads.

What we probably need is a Primer on brakes and upgrades - and what is not an upgrade. Bill has listed everything, but there is no Brakes 101 course online, and it is a commonly misunderstood subject.

The Boxster calipers may give you everything you want. I would not be surprised if you got a bit better feel out of them, but that is not to say you aren't downgrading in some respects rather than upgrading.

The two problems with most brake downgrades is that people are adding both unsprung wt. and unhinged dollars.

[JP911]

Here's a summary of what you'll find in the myriad of brake threads:

1. 911 brakes, throughout the years, are solid and a simple rebuild with fresh performance pads, a full fluid flush, and new rubber lines will get you a long way. The stock brakes are GREAT for street use and work well on the track.

2. 84-89 Carrera front brakes (calipers and rotors) are the best bang for the buck upgrade for an SC

3. 930 brakes on all 4 corners is the "ultimate" upgrade if you want to keep the Fuchs, but the latest price for a kit is around $3500

4. Boxter brake kits are available, but under factory Fuchs you will need to use a smaller rotor than what is used on the Boxter (Carrera, I believe). The drawback is that the larger pad required for the Boxter calipers will quickly overheat the rotors (in heavy performance use)

5. There are many other alternatives, from later Porsches, from Brembo, and several other aftermarket companies, but most will require larger wheels...which makes the 930 brake upgrade look affordable

Finally, if you're experiencing fade under street driving conditions then you may have a master cylinder issue, a leak at one of the calipers, or you're badly in need of a brake fluid flush.

Good luck!

[averyhabbott]

Thanks to all for the info. It's a good thing I checked here before taking out a second mortgage on my army barracks room, eh? :-P I think I'll go with the 84 Carerra brakes with some cross-drilled rotors and some pretty caliper paint.

It's definitely time for a brake fluid flush, since I've had the car for coming on a year and haven't done it yet. Shame on me, considering the poor upkeep record kept by the previous owner (looking at the condition the car is in, anyway). I suppose that'll be my project for next month, since I've already expended my budget for this month, with a few extra goodies.

Well, for now, I'll just have to be happy with the new door panels, short shifter kit, oil change, and oil cooler scoop I'm fixing to put on.

One last note, if anyone feels generous enough to reply.

My targa roof leaks from all four corners. I'm almost positive that this is due to old and misshapen seals all along the top. Is it possible to replace these seals with something not designed for them? I.e., I got a quote from a company a while back for about $300 to redo almost all the seals along the roof, windows, and windshields. Judging from the pricing of the Porsche-specific seals, I don't find this possible without using something that's not designed to go there. From what I can figure, though, these people should know what they're doing better than I do, since it's a shop that does nothing but seals, and can probably rig up something that looks good and functions well. Any helpful pointers?

[Bill Verburg]

Originally posted by averyhabbott
Bill,
1.) Will the calipers/rotors from the 1997-2004 Boxsters bolt on to my 1980 911SC?

2.) Will they out-perform the brakes from a 1984 Carrera?

3.) Will I have to upgrade my master cylinder, brake booster, or reservoir? and

4.) What will I need to do to maintain operation of the parking brake?

Did you read


This, "General Brake Mods"?

It really is quite frustrating when the same questions are repeatedly asked and answered
the answers to your specific questions
1)yes, w/ adaptors, no
2)By what metric? But in general, No
3)yes
4)Use stock rear rotors, either 911 or 930 but Boxsters don't fit 930s

It sounds to me that your stock brake shaven't been maintained properly.

The cheapest, easiest, most bang for the buck for you is to be sure your stock rears are nominal and use the '84-89 Carrera fronts. No other changes are necessary.

[Super_Dave_D]

I thought the same way on my 88 but after reading the tons of threads on here, I decided just to rebuild my calipers and replace the lines, pads and rotors (Weekend car). I could not be happier!! The factory Carrera brakes work wonderful when fresh!

[Bill Verburg]

Originally posted by Elfer
Hi all. Im upgrading my SC brakes to larger calipers and drilled rotors. Any suggestions as far as applications are concerned? I know big reds are very popular, but what about 930 brakes? Ive even heard of 944T brakes on 911 and 928GT systems. Can someone shed a light on this for me? Please include applicable years and mods necessary to fit these systems. Any help/suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance. Also if anyone is selling a system or know of someone who is, please post a reply as well.

Sorry your thread got hijacked, but the same questions need to be asked.

Just what exactly about your brakes needs improvement? What seems to be the problem?

[JP911]

Originally posted by averyhabbott
My targa roof leaks from all four corners. I'm almost positive that this is due to old and misshapen seals all along the top. Is it possible to replace these seals with something not designed for them? I.e., I got a quote from a company a while back for about $300 to redo almost all the seals along the roof, windows, and windshields. Judging from the pricing of the Porsche-specific seals, I don't find this possible without using something that's not designed to go there. From what I can figure, though, these people should know what they're doing better than I do, since it's a shop that does nothing but seals, and can probably rig up something that looks good and functions well. Any helpful pointers?

The targa seals, and getting the roof fitting perfectly, can be a real pain. The factory is currently the only source for new seals, although a Pelican member who is a targa roof expert is looking into reproducing the front seal in its original form for pre-Carrera targas. The issue with the later front seal is that it needs to be trimmed to fit properly on an SC. When I replaced this seal on my targa I couldn't get it quite right and had to deal with leaks and wind noise as a result.

[TonyG]

I finally had the time to really push the Boxter brakes I have on my 1982 3.6L SC. These are Boxter front/rear calipers with Hawk pads, using Carrera rotors, and a 23mm master cylinder, using the TRE caliper adapters and fluid lines (basically the TRE kit).

Running Fuchs 7"/9" rims using 225x16" / 255x16" Toyo R1's.

I ran it at Button Willow (full track clockwise), about 15 fairly hard practice laps per session, for four (4) sessions.

The performance of the brake setup is excellent with no brake fade during each session (95F+ ambient air temps). The front / rear bias was great as-is using the current tires setup.

Despite what you might hear/read, in my opinion the brakes are MUCH better than the stock SC or Carrera setup, both of which were run on the same car (and have been run on the same track).

I'm a happy customer :-)


TonyG

[TonyG]

I have the full Boxter caliper/Carrera rotor brake upgrade on my SC.

I finally had the time to really push the Boxter brakes I have on my 1982 3.6L SC. These are Boxter front/rear calipers with Hawk pads, using Carrera rotors, and a 23mm master cylinder, using the TRE caliper adapters and fluid lines (basically the TRE kit).

Running Fuchs 7"/9" rims using 225x16" / 255x16" Toyo R1's.

I ran it at Button Willow (full track clockwise), about 15 fairly hard practice laps per session, for four (4) sessions.

The performance of the brake setup is excellent with no brake fade during each session (95F+ ambient air temps). The front / rear bias was great as-is using the current tires setup.

Despite what you might hear/read, in my opinion the brakes are MUCH better than the stock SC or Carrera setup, both of which were run on the same car (and have been run on the same track).

I'm a happy customer (of TRE) and recommend their Boxter brake kit fully.

Good luck,


TonyG

[hmd]

Despite what you might hear/read, in my opinion the brakes are MUCH better than the stock SC or Carrera setup, both of which were run on the same car (and have been run on the same track).

TonyG

I had Boxster brakes on my 3.2 but never quite get the bias to work. Also I had a lot of issues with boiling fluid even with AP 5.1 and AJ USA brake ducting. I went to the 993 setup and it was MUCH MUCH better. So if you are starting from scratch for the $$$ you spend the Boxster setup does not quite have the same ROI as the 993 setup, IMHO.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by TonyG

I have the full Boxster caliper/Carrera rotor brake upgrade on my SC.

I finally had the time to really push the Boxster brakes I have on my 1982 3.6L SC. These are Boxster front/rear calipers with Hawk pads, using Carrera rotors, and a 23mm master cylinder, using the TRE caliper adapters and fluid lines (basically the TRE kit).

Running Fuchs 7"/9" rims using 225x16" / 255x16" Toyo R1's.

I ran it at Button Willow (full track clockwise), about 15 fairly hard practice laps per session, for four (4) sessions.

The performance of the brake setup is excellent with no brake fade during each session (95F+ ambient air temps). The front / rear bias was great as-is using the current tires setup.

Despite what you might hear/read, in my opinion the brakes are MUCH better than the stock SC or Carrera setup, both of which were run on the same car (and have been run on the same track).

I'm a happy customer (of TRE) and recommend their Boxster brake kit fully.

Good luck,


Tony G

All you have proved is that you would have been fine w/ Carrera brakes.

The key to brake life on track is keeping temps down. You do that w/ cooling and rotor size.

There are 4 sizes of rotors, in increasing ability to run cooler

1. thru '83 911, 282x20/290x20
2. '84-89 Carrera, 282x24/290x24
3. '78 -89 930, 304x32/309x28
4. 993TT/RS, 322x32/322x28

Each succeeding option runs cooler than the previous regardless of the caliper, pad, or anything else. Each succeeding option is also heavier, a necessary attribute to cooler running(unless you go to PCCB). A compromise between weight and operating temps is chosen so that you run the lightest that does the job.

w/ 911 rotors caliper options are S, A, M

w/ Carrera rotors caliper options are wide A, wide M, small Brembo(944/964), Boxster

w/ 930 rotors caliper options are 930, 964(aka small Brembo), 993(akaS4)

w/ 993TT/RS rotors caliper options are 993T/993RS(aka Big Red)