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Top End Estimate - Need a review - COMPLETE!
Hey - I am looking at a top-end and need someone to take a look at this and see if the price is on par for the average (for what I am getting done). Any comments are welcome. I need this quick so I can give a go or no go. Thanks!!
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The prices are a bit on the high side, but not by much. My question is if he is pulling the cylinders to replace the divilar head studs why not replace the piston rings while he is in there? And why is he only replacing 8 head studs? There are 12 lower head studs to replace, 6 on each side.
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Kurt, he lists 24 steel studs on the sheet - so that's good.
+1 It seems to me like a new set of rings would be great, but I'm just guessing. It's gonna be torn down that far, anyway. Someone on here knows the realities of new rings-old P's. I don't. Seems like a great idea - Unless he tries to upsell you to a new set of P's and C's when he gets in there! $$$$$$$$ |
super duper dave............hope the seats are working fine.
while yer in thars to think about: powder coat engine tin/fan/etc. it goes on and on............. any and all gaskets replaced new clutch(im sure there dropping eng/tranny as one its a g-50) new engine sound deadner pad since cv's apart check fer wear zoomy unwarpable hargett valve covers(went to ventura.......they is nice) cad plate fan housing strap cad plate all nuts bolts washers (cheap) and anything else that catches your eye. good luck and keep us posted with what all they find good and bad. |
Yes the seats look awesome but that’s the least of my issues right now. I know I could spend a fortune "while we are in there". The clutch is a definite must. The CV's are new so no issues there. To be honest, I am a little frustrated right now and I am compleplating getting rid of it when its complete BUT I am having all the tin and housings and stuff powder coated so it will look pretty and run nice so we'll see when I get it back.
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If your wrench is good, he should be able to reuse the head nuts. I only booged three on my engine and that's because I was impatient and didn't switch sockets when I should have done so.
If he heats the exhaust nuts cherry red with oxy-acet torch, the nuts should come off without breaking the studs for your exhaust system. Distributor cap is pretty pricey. Do that simple job yourself! |
super duper dave.............dont get depressed over it!
more than likely.............like 99% sure the bottom end is still in perfect condition. countless threads here for our year vehicles and others . have read over and over how many wished they had never cracked the bottom end. so with a new top end , you really dont have alot more to worry about. car will run like raped ape, use no oil, and wont smoke. just to put you back in your happy place..............an exact carbon copy of my 87 red cab when it was stock(bone stock) was at ventura. 118K miles on it. guy was firm asking 29,995$$$$$$$$$ and it was worth every penny. concours condition. as per excellance and order of being coveted for 87-89 model years: 1)speedster-89 2)cabs 3)coupes (sunroof deletes) 4)coupes (w/sunroofs) 5) targas the 87-89's are starting to really become the model years to own and prices are showing it. they only made so many............and alot are already wadded up into a beer can. its supply/demand and you have a really nice car there. when you get done with the top end, go drive it around and break it in, and then go forget about it for a while. then come back to it and go for it again. i know all about heaving mass quanities of cash into them. and im still not done. but to be truthful.............i wouldnt have it any other way. |
Depending on the miles / years on your engine, you might want to take a close look at all of the cam drive hardware as well. Chains, tensioners, sprockets, are not that much more $$ while it is laying all over the shop anyway.
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Dave, I just completed my top end rebuild a couple months ago and couldn't be happier. I had 114k on the clock and had leak down numbers similar to yours. I was using close to a quart every 250 miles and I now use no oil and don't smoke at all. I avoided some of the "while you are in there's", but did some as well. For example, my clutch had been replaced once before and was still in great condition. No reason to replace it again. On the other hand, I went ahead and did the re-ring (glad I did), engine sound pad, breather gasket, fuel line, oil return tubes and a bunch of other little things while I was in there.
In terms of your list of parts a couple things jump to mind. 1. The parts are a tad higher than on PP, but what do you expect - mechanics always make money on parts as well as labor. 2. The labor at 27 hours is less than I would have expected. It really is alot of work. I would have guessed 40 hours, but what do i know. 3. What about rebuilding the heads? Is that included in the 27 hours? I saw the valve guides, but didn't see anything for exhaust valves or machine work. And who is doing the work on the heads? Good luck and keep that fellow FL G-50 on the road! |
I've seen a shop in memphis (I pretty good one at that) charge 8K for a total rebuild.
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It seems a little wacky to me...
27 hrs. doesn't seem like long enough to pull, disassemble, reassemble and reinstall, but what the hey... Is he including the work to do the heads in this estimate? I notice he lists the valve guides in the cost, but what will be done to the heads exactly? These are the most critical area, and not where you want to save money. You should look at valves; if you can afford it, replace all, if not, just do exhausts. The seats need to be cut and lapped after replacing the guides, and this is a rather time-consuming operation. Valve springs tested or replaced? 8 hours seems a bit extreme to replace the head studs; it didn't even take ME that long. Agree with Kevin that new head nuts should not be required. Also agree that new rings should be contemplated should things be apart. Pistons and cyls should be measured for wear while in there; it would be expensive to go back there if there are issues. Good luck, it's worth it! ianc |
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I am a "do it yourself" kind of guy and part of the reason is I hate paying for labor because I could be buying parts with that money instead. - If you can remove and deliver the engine yourself that would be a big chunk right there. - The distributor cap you can replace yourself for a lot less. - Is there a reason that the sensors are on the list? Was there any problems with the way it was running other then the valve/compression issues? - If they are going to charge you $52 for oil make it something different then Castrol or deliver your own. The clutch is a good "while you are in there" but if you are looking at that you might want to think about a light weight pressure plate and disk without the rubber hub. If the clutch looks great I would still do a new throwout bearing. Plating the parts is an interesting idea. It would do a lot to keep things nice without costing too much. The recommendation that you reuse the head nuts is just bad and your mechanic won't go for it. He is putting in ARP studs. You need to use ARP nuts on those studs. The thread pitch is the same but the profile of the thread is different. |
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Don't see a reason to use ARP head nuts if you're just going to use the stock steel studs, the stock nuts should be fine, and the $100 better spent elsewhere. ianc |
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EBS lists ARP for $495 so a shop price of $523.20 doesn't sound right for ARP studs and nuts. Besides the fact that they listed the Porsche numbers. That is a definite point that needs to be cleared up. |
Yes what others have said, do the rings (he said the plugs were oily and fouled "Mismatched" WTF?), and if your doing the valves guides why no do the valves and seats unless they're perfect?
As always if you are not keen on the quote get another one from a recommended shop. Good luck. |
David,
The quote is only as good as the shop. Ask around, there are good, better and the best. Find the best shop and talk to them about what you want to do and how far you are willing to go. Listen to their recomendation, then proceed. The best shop will get it right the first time. Don't nickel and dime them, they will explain what needs to be done. The best shop is usually busy, so you may have to wait awhile. Again, ask around, in a short time the best shop will be apparent. |
I went ahead and gave him the green light so theres no looking back now. I did ask about the rings and he said he wanted to inspect them first and that he would N/C install them if needed. He felt good about the compression so he didnt list them. My garage is so lonely now or maybe it me - the wife already took it over and put her G35 in there!!! WTF the body isnt even cold!!
Oh ya - the plugs mismatched!!! Previous wrench and hes supposed to be good!?! I know I shoudl do it myself but I had it there so I had him do it - I was lazy and look what it got me. I'll be back!!! |
Hope they do a great job for you! Stop in every now and again and take some pics for posting here; we'll be interested to see what's haps with your baby.
Keep us posted! ianc |
super duper dave...........next week on friday bring a case of the shops FAVORITE BEER! see if they are working saturday. ask to come in and youll buy lunch. ask to be the shop monkey on your car. ie. parts washing etc.
my wrench when i could finally pin him down over a beer said this about engine rebuilds........... down to the crank/cases split/all parts sitting on the shelf/engine out..........it takes him about 40-50 hours to take apart/clean/machine/and put back together. the biggest PITA and time eater was................you guessed it.............CLEANING THE PARTS and CHECKING TOLERANCES! sooooooooooo...............with that in mind........chum up/belly up/cough up some beer and subway sandwiches and ask to clean parts! saves them time/lets you figure out a KANUTEN-VALVE from a SNORKEL from a VALVE GUIDE and all of you tell TALL TALES, laugh your butts off, and generally have a hell of a time, and best of all.............you get to see whats right and whats FUCHED UP first hand. 3 ways to build a motor: dirt damn cheap conservative apeshi!/hang the expense point the bucks at what has been the achillies heel on these 3.2's and leave it alone. you have listed those items and the top end will be bulletproof for what your doing w/car. changing earl every 3k will assure it living a happy life for years to come on the highway and the occasional i have lost my mind "track daze"! im gradually working my way towards exactly what yer doing. wevo shifter and precision shift joint SSI's and 2 into 2 tranny comes out and pesky 2nd gear synchro replaced along w/clutch/TO bearing etc. CV's already new. possibly a QUAIFFE??? and then..............the motors top end. unless anything found bad on bottom end. im at 118K and use a 1/4 of a quart of earl every 1549miles. the ******* car will be NEW AGAIN! THE ONLY CAR I HAVE EVER OWNED THAT I SPENT WAYYYY MORE ON THAN ITS ORIGINAL PURCHASE PRICE! is that a beautiful THANG ER WHAT?????? LOL! TAKE PICTURES! |
check your motor and tranny mts while yer in thar. more than likely bagged after 20 years . cheap parts to replace in big scheme of thangs. major butt dyno improvement when installed.
i went with the wevo mtr. mts. and patrick moto tranny mt. very happy with improvement over my sunbaked/heat rotted/crapped out/bagged 20 year old OEM mounts. |
Looks reasonable to me. Not sure of your mileage, but if it's under 100k the conventional wisdom on a top end rebuild if all measures out is to reuse the P & C's and NOT re-ring. I would do a 964 cam regrind, which is "only" about another $400. That's what I did. It does start to add up. I also powder coated the fan and engine tin, but if I was doing it again I probably would just high temp paint those things and save that $400. I went overboard and also rebuilt my trans as it was grinding into 1st, and I decided it was a "good idea" to have the engine and trans redone at the same time. If you can afford it it's hard not to get a little carried away. I almost bumped my 3.0 displacement up with bigger P & C's, but I really didn't need them and I couldn't talk myself into the extra $3,500!!
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I was quoted 8-10k for a basic top end only at a "not to be named" well respected shop here in the Dallas area. In talking to the guy he confirmed Charleskieffer's comment about cleaning...the vast majority of the labor is cleaning things. I can clean stuff pretty cheaply. I'll happily pay for the skilled work to be done by someone else. I am not implying anything with regard to shops, they need to be paid for all the work they do but I can save some money doing the really easy things myself. I also don't break too many things if all I'm doing is cleaning parts!
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Sorry, I overlooked the ARP studs and did not realize they were being used- and I must admit I was not aware that the thread cut of the ARP studs is different, despite being the same thread size & pitch. But then the question I have is, the replacement nuts listed are OE Porsche nuts and therefore would result in the same condition as reusing the old nuts, no???
I think the question needs to be asked, what's the use of the car? If a street car, needlessly replacing things like head stud nuts that are still functional and using ARP studs is way overkill. Use old nuts that still have tight hexes and install steel studs on the bottom/exhaust row. It's very easy to go overboard with "while you're in theres." I've been very guilty of that. A good inspection of the parts can tell you what can be reused. When I did mine, I overkilled it with new valve springs and a cam regrind. If all looks good (upper studs, rocker arms, rocker shafts, fasteners, cross hatching on cylinders......) reuse what you can and put it back together. The deeper you go, the more it costs. These engines are very durable besides the valve guide issues. Fix the main problem (valve guides) and button it back up. To start replacing things just because it seems like a good idea can get very expensive. By the way a cam regrind can be had for $275 if you contact "camgrinder" John Dougherty. |
I told him to do it and also have everything bead blasted and powder coated or painted. I figured as that if it was out I wanted it to look new when it went back in. So I guess at the end of the day YES I am going overboard but I tend to do that. Heck bought a set of carpet that turned into a major interior replacement.
KTL - the car is currently street but I have been working on it for 2 years in anticipation of taking to the track for DE's. I will have full photo documentation of the work performed. I think my biggest deal with all of this is not having my baby in the garage for a few weeks. Anyone want a 88 Carrera with a fresh top-end ,new interior, new brakes (full), New TT rods and on and on and on........hell I am married to it now - might as well keep it |
I actually know a guy in J-ville that told me he was starting to shop around for one. Let me know if you end up serious about selling it.
Of course if I were you I wouldn't sell, but everyone's different. |
Believe it or not the wife told me to go buy a 996 (I have wanted one as a DD) but told me I have to keep the 88 (bummer!!). I guess I am a pretty lucky guy.
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super duper dave.............i was sorry about your having to dump bucks in your car. you had my sympathy.
now the gloves are off.................. 3.4 p's and c's and the WHOLE ENCHILADA! super mongo track car! hahahahahaha buy another red juan! |
curious question.............does your wife have a seeeeeesss-ter(sister)? LOL i need want gotta have needa needa gotta have a 996 too!
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Well - she went under the knife for a major operation. Heres a few pics I took today during my visit. I miss her so bad but I know she will be awesome when she comes home. The garage is empty and the wife even commented that she will be glad when I get it bad so I'll have something to do. My wrench will provide a photo CD of the entire operation from start to finish. It spretty cool to see a digital cam on the work bench. I will post more is a few weeks. Hopefully a lot prettier ones.
On the lift http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1190342557.jpg Engine (kinda) http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1190342591.jpg Beleive it or not - it ran pretty well but look at this!!!! http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1190342631.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1190342648.jpg |
How many exhaust system cyl. head studs broke? Let us know what's the verdict on the rocker arms and shafts too. Those shouldn't be overlooked.
Based on the look inside those chain boxes, oil change history is a bit spotty (few and far between) or poor choice of oil. That's a fair amount of oil discoloration in there. Keep in mind those cam & tensioner oil feed lines may need replacing if not already suggested. The old ones may not have leaked before starting the work, but they like to leak upon reinstallation once they've been disturbed. Before you get too crazy with while you're in there's for appearance, make sure to address the potential clutch issues like Quicksilver said. Clutch fork pivot shaft, fork, release bearing, guide tube and clutch housing & disc should be inspected for condition. It's a worthwhile while you're in there since another engine drop is required if clutch issues come up in the near future. |
Just curious - what were the symptoms that led to the decision to rebuild?
High oil consumption? Noise from broken head studs? And what did your wrench say about your compression and leakdown numbers? The compression didn't look too bad (though 140 is a bit low). Will be interested to hear the condition of the rings/bores, etc. |
Subscribed.
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Amazingly none of the exhaust studs broke but they look real rusty (almost a thinning look) so I am having them all replaced. The clutch components were all upgraded by the PO and look new so my wrench advised not replacing it.
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Extremely high oil consumption was the reason. The car actually ran pretty well even in its condition except to a real slight miss - a couple plugs were fouled. He had't got down to the rings/bores yet. I will let you know.
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Wow - I'm guessing you will be replacing ALL the exhaust valves - maybe even a few of the intake too.
Castrol oil? |
David,
What was your "extremely high oil consumption?" I am fearing a top-end is in my near future. I am burning a quart about every 400-500 miles, sometimes less if I am driving the car hard. |
Sorry to say but you might need to get ready - I was burning a qt every 400 miles. I think 400miles is high. The thing that really set me off was, I attached a camera on the back of my car so I could record my M&K (dorky I know) and on decel it smoked bad so thats what lead me to thsi point.
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What happened to the subscribe link that used to be at the bottom of each thread?
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I see new Ps and Cs in your future
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