Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[RWebb]

Valvoleners read this:

Anyone famaliar with "Spark Plug Knock" at high temperature?

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by RWebb

Valvoleners read this:

Anyone famaliar with "Spark Plug Knock" at high temperature?

Yeah. I read it earlier Webb. Interesting.

The post indicates that a change from VR-1 to Kendall GT-1 eliminated low-speed chain slop from the pressurized chain tensioners at elevated engine temps. Not discounting his experience, but that's one for the anecdotal library.

Sherwood

[tuchan]

For the Aussie crew or in fact anybody that can get this oil. Here is a zinc table listing showing PPM.

I use HPR 40 in the SC.




TECHNICAL BULLETIN NO: 192
LATEST ZINC LEVELS
Issue: November 2011


PRODUCT SAE GRADE API RATING ACEA RATING JASO ZINC PPM

HPR 0 0W-30 SL/CF A3/B4 1050
HPR 5 5W-40 SN/CF A3/B4 1050
HPR 10 10W-50 SN/CF A3/B4 1140
HPR 15 15W-60 SN/CF A3/B4 1140
HPR 30 20W-60 SM/CF A3/B3 1110
HPR 40 25W-70 SL 1450
HPR 50 40-70 SL 1450
HPR GAS 10 10W-50 CI-4/SL A3/B3 1220
HPR GAS 20W-60 CG-4/SL 1290
HPR DIESEL 5 5W-40 CI-4 PLUS/SL A3/B4 1220
HPR DIESEL 15 15W-50 CI-4 PLUS/SL A3/B4 1220
HPR DIESEL 20W-60 CH-4/SJ A3/B3 1220

PREMIUM FULL SYNTH 0 0W-50 SN/CF MA 1250
PREMIUM FULL SYNTH 5 5W-60 SN/CF 1200
PREMIUM FULL SYNTH 10 10W-70 SN/CF 1200
RACING 0 0W-20 SL/CF 1320
RACING 5 5W-30 SL/CF 1320
RACING 10 10W-40 SN/CF MA 1240
RACING 15 15W-50 SN/CF MA 1240
RACING 20 20W-60 SN/CF MA 1240

ENVIRO+ 0W-40 SN/CF C3 890
ENVIRO+ 5W-30 670
ENVIRO+ 5W-40 SN/CF C3 890
ENVIRO+ C4 5W-30 C4 510
ENVIRO+ DL-1 5W-30 C1/C2 DL-1 510
ENVIRO+ GF-5 5W-30 SN RC 850

EVERYDAY DRIVING 5W-30 SL/CF MA 1080
EVERYDAY DRIVING 10W-30 SL/CF MA 1080
EVERYDAY DRIVING 15W-40 SL/CF-4 MA 1080
EVERYDAY DRIVING 20W-50 SL/CF-4 MA 1080
STOPS OIL BURNING 30-70 SJ 1110

MARINE 4 STROKE 10W-50 SL MA 1320
SMALL ENGINE MONO 30 SG/CD 1170
SMALL ENGINE MULTI 10W-30 SL/CF A3/B3 1140
SMALL ENGINE MULTI 20W-50 SG/CF 1170

RUNNING IN OIL 15W-40 SF/CC 1610

http://www.penriteoil.com.au/tech_pdfs/192%20LATEST%20ZINC%20LEVELS.pdf

[jpahemi]

Not trying to create conflict, it's just that Autozone only had 7qts ($3.29) of VR-1, so I grabbed 4qts of Kendall GT-1. I'm thinking the add-pacs are very similar, if not the same, and the base oil has to be identical (20-50). 'Just wanted to check whether mixing these two oils would pose a problem...
This is for an oil change in a '84 3.2 911.

Thank you,
jp
NY

[AlfonsoR]

I wouldn't do it. What makes you think the base stock is the same? Even if they are the same, the signature in oils is all in the additive package. I would bet (but I do not know for sure) that the add package is different.

Anyway, just a cardinal rule that a lot of folks have, stick to one oil and one oil only. Mixing is just sacrelige and should only be done on a must do basis. Just my opinion, I am not a tribologist.

[KNS]

I wouldn't hesitate to add a quart of some off-brand oil to top off the car in a pinch. I wouldn't mix as much as 30-40% or more of a different brand though. The blends can be very different.

[richardlw]

It won't kill the engine, but you won't get the full performance of either. It isn't the base oil that has to be compatible, (and all are), but the additive packs are completely different. No problem with clash, just not the benefit of the zddp of the VR1 when you dilute it with the Kendall.

BTW, I just noticed someone posted a Kendal oil analysis here a couple of years ago with an ISO cleanliness code of 22/19/14
Motor oils need to be 18/16/13. That sample had 19,000 particles per ml more than the limit (over 4 microns) that will continue to cycle through the engine because the typical oil filter will take out about 50% of the 20 micron particles on each pass. The most damage is done by the 5 to 12 micron particles since they are small enough to keep circulating but big enough to cause problems. Here is a chart that shows the code in 100 ml levels, indicating that 22/19/14 between 2 million and 4 million particles per 100 ml over 4 um.

[gtc]

Three years ago I had a virgin oil analysis performed on Brad Penn. The ISO value was 23/22/17.
A similar test on Kendall (the formula before "Liquid Titanium") yielded an ISO value of 22/19/14.

I wonder if this is a lab issue.

[Jerome74911S]

Oh man, I'm getting a headache. The more we look at this whole oil thing, the more conflicts, surprises, disappointments, and confusion there is.

If there is one perfect oil, we evidently haven't found it yet. Anyway, tomorrow the oil companies will change their additive formulations and all of this thread will be obsolete.

It seems to me that if an oil is carefully chosen and generally meets the performance criteria spelled out here, then just use the stuff. I don't believe the engine will blow up from any one of many different oils out there.

Is this issue being beaten to death?

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by Jerome74911S

...

Is this issue being beaten to death?

why would anyone think that????

[porsche930dude]

maby if its dead long enough it will become the best oil

[HarryD]

I saw this today: Leapin

This is exactly the problem with the newer oils. This type of failure was unheard of prior to the SM oils.

[j911brick]

I'm looking at buying a car and had an oil analysis do. The report said all normal,, but the copper and iron look high. Does anybody know what numbers would be normal for the copper and iron?

[db_cooper]

The oil report typically has some normal unit averages, at least some I've seen. How high were the copper and iron in PPM? What engine?

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by richardlw

It won't kill the engine, but you won't get the full performance of either. It isn't the base oil that has to be compatible, (and all are), but the additive packs are completely different. No problem with clash, just not the benefit of the zddp of the VR1 when you dilute it with the Kendall.

BTW, I just noticed someone posted a Kendal oil analysis here a couple of years ago with an ISO cleanliness code of 22/19/14
Motor oils need to be 18/16/13. That sample had 19,000 particles per ml more than the limit (over 4 microns) that will continue to cycle through the engine because the typical oil filter will take out about 50% of the 20 micron particles on each pass. The most damage is done by the 5 to 12 micron particles since they are small enough to keep circulating but big enough to cause problems. Here is a chart that shows the code in 100 ml levels, indicating that 22/19/14 between 2 million and 4 million particles per 100 ml over 4 um.

quoted just to make sure this info on particle size damage effects does not get lost in the mix

[j911brick]

Originally Posted by db_cooper

The oil report typically has some normal unit averages, at least some I've seen. How high were the copper and iron in PPM? What engine?

The oil report doesn't say what the normal range is. The report is tucked away at the moment but I do recall that copper and iron were significantly higher than everything else. I'll see if I can't dig it out in a few minutes.

[Jerome74911S]

Originally Posted by RWebb

quoted just to make sure this info on particle size damage effects does not get lost in the mix

I found that interesting, but oils change all the time. Anyway, what about cleanliness of other oils? How do we go about getting that info?

[db_cooper]

This is an example of a problem oil report for a 3.4 Porsche 911..maybe a problem or not. The four quarts of make up oil in 6500 miles is a question too.

Were the unit averages and metals like these? Notice the ZDDP numbers are 800ppm or less on the Mobil 1. A more robust oil would be a good idea, with around 1200ppm Z+P.

[j911brick]

says:

alu 5

chro 8

copper 34

iron 23

lead 4

tin 7

sil 15

potas 2

sodium 23

moly 163

water 0.1

oxidation 8.2

vis 13.6

gly ND

fuel <2%

tbn 6.2

nitration 4.4 soot 0.3

[db_cooper]

What were the zinc and phosphorus numbers? Should be in the neighborhood of 1200ppm.

Yes the iron and copper were high. Use an HDEO (Rotella, Delvac, Kendall Super D) or Brad Penn if you are using an automotive oil with low Z+P. Do an oil analysis again in the next 4000 miles.