Ultimate Motor Oil Thread or Why we hate CJ4/SM oils

[cnavarro]

I'll give Ken a call, but I can already say that their increase to 1200 ppm was probably more of a marketing move, since everyone is so fixated on Zn and P #s - rather than paying attention to the Ca, Mg, and Na detergents and their lower levels, allowing the available Zn and P to work better. Reformulation or not, the Brad Penn had the best results for wear of all the oils we tested - RP, Amsoil, M1 V-Twin, back in '06, right when the low Zn and P levels were supposedly contained by the Brad Penn. Even examining engines torn down built after the first of the year for oil testing have shown the Brad Penn still works fine. Don't loose any sleep over it.

[dshepp806]

Seems to be specific to 10W30???

[dshepp806]

Charles,

What say Ken about 20W50?

[sig_a]

Here's an idea - Call Exxon.

1-800-ASK MOBIL (275-6624)

[cnavarro]

To each their own...

Yes, I have contacted Amref and I'm waiting to hear back from Ken. If I get anything pertainent, I'll report back.

[carrue529]

Just an FYI for those on the West coast (SoCal)

I located a Brad Penn distributor in La Verne near the Pomona Fairgrounds (East LA county/West Riverside county border)

B&T Performance
Bill Mizia
909-596-8810
La Verne CA

I just picked up several cases of this oil, good prices.

[cnavarro]

Here is the truncated response I got from Brad Penn:

"Let me begin answering your inquiry by stating that the letter you reference in your e-mail was written following a customer analysis request on December 7, 2007. The analysis performed (in my opinion) accurately reflected the production parameters in effect for the product dated March 2006.Since then, the Penn-Grade 1® product line has seen a reformulation, and yes, the catalyst behind the change was the feedback from many end users who were convinced that elevated Zn and P levels was necessary in their applications."

As I figured, the change was one just to meet the perception of the need for more Zn and P, bringing it up to where Swepco is.

Let me conclude by tabling the following current Penn-Grade 1® production numbers for you:

PHOSPHORUS, Mass%
ZINC, Mass%

#7150 Partial Synthetic Racing Oil SAE 10W-30
0.140 typ
0.153 typ

#7115 SAE 50 Racing Oil
0.140 typ
0.153 typ

#7117 Nitro 70 Racing Oil
0.140 typ
0.153 typ

#7126 Part Synthetic Racing Oil SAE 0W-30
0.134 typ
0.150 typ

#7119 Part Synthetic Racing Oil SAE 20W-50
0.140 typ
0.153 typ

[elpresidente]

Holy crap! Just read the whole thread and I want to go stab my eyeballs with a pencil. I just bought a case of Castrol GTX High Mileage 20-50w yesterday. Seemed to be "approved" by our community in recent times. I guess that opinion has changed? Or has it? I have no friggin' idea now.

[sig_a]

This virgin oil analysis (VOA) of reformulated Brad Penn (P: 1046, Z: 1209)doesn't seem to be the equal to reformulated Silver Cap Mobil 1 15w50Mobil.

[cnavarro]

Sig_a, you are welcome to keep using Mobil 1 if you are displeased with Brad Penn.

I'm glad the VOA doesn't show they are equal. They aren't! Your VOA shows that the Brad Penn has significantly lower levels of Ca detergent, using Mg and Na detergents as well. You seem well enough satisfied to ignore the detergents used, which that's my crutch with M1. The old M1 prior to reformulation used lower Ca levels and had Mg and Na detergents as well. Also, the Brad Penn lacks friction modifiers (Mo), which some studies also show that moly can cause increased wear and Cummins has gone so far as to specificy that oils with friction modifiers should not be used in their diesels for that matter.

The Brad Penn, regardless of your VOA, continues to be a proven oil, like the swepco. Their addition of a trivial bit more Zn and P doesn't change that. It's not like they reduced it any. And it still has a superior detergent package, at least when it comes to wear. Ca only based detergents are used to allow for longer drain intervals, not for better wear.

If you look through my previous posts and my web site, I have documented which SAE papers (there's more than one), that have cited Ca detergents as having up to twice as much wear as oils formulated with lower levels of Ca, using Mg and Na detergents in its place.

[cnavarro]

Originally Posted by elpresidente

Holy crap! Just read the whole thread and I want to go stab my eyeballs with a pencil. I just bought a case of Castrol GTX High Mileage 20-50w yesterday. Seemed to be "approved" by our community in recent times. I guess that opinion has changed? Or has it? I have no friggin' idea now.

The Castrol GTX 20w50 still has SG levels of Zn and P, so yes, technically it's ok, but that's not everything when considering an oil. GTX is a very low quality oil, and as such, doesn't perform that well regardless of Zn and P. For very short drain intervals and pleasure driving, it's probably ok. There are better choices though. At least the HM holds it's viscosity a bit better than the regular GTX.

[Wavey]

Plus the BP makes and additional 7.5 HP and 8 ft-lbs. over M1 (go back a few pages), and is about 1/2 the price.

[WI wide body]

I think that Porsche originally recommended Shell for the older engines. Does the current version of Shell RotellaT have the required/suggested levels of ZDDP and the other stuff?

It's 15W40 and says Heavy Duty "Triple Action" on the container.

[cnavarro]

Rotella T falls under the CJ-4 classification, so I personally would not use it in my 911.

I find it interesting that only companies like Swepco have chosen to make a specific CJ-4 oil for '07 and newer diesel engines with particulate emissions filters, rather than forcing CI-4 users to run the new low emissions formula in older engines. Brad Penn's American Refining Group also does so, but that take it a set further and sell four different oils -a CF, CH, CI, and CJ rated diesel oil! I don't understand why the larger companies have such a problem with simultaneously marketing two products.

[drauz]

"I don't understand why the larger companies have such a problem with simultaneously marketing two products."

Their marketing depts have thoroughly studied the buying public and discovered excessive high viscosity.

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by HarryD

Steve,

That was what lit up my radar. Seems they are trying to make it something it is not. As some others noted, not a way to get the trust of a savvy customer.



Charles,

I agree, this does seem like disingenuous actions by the marketing folks.

I presume there are non-ZDDP additives that can provide the indicated level of Phosphorus without adding Zinc at the same time. Is this correct?

Harry, Charles, et. al:

I ran across this product this evening and without commenting about this item on its own merit, I did find the information very interesting, especially the ones about ZDDP and the marketing about Zn OR P,.....(the context being M1's current mention of P without Zn).

http://www.tinindianperformance.com/ZddPlus.htm

Its a good read and corroborates many things I read in the SAE papers.

[HarryD]

Originally Posted by Steve@Rennsport

Harry, Charles, et. al:

I ran across this product this evening and without commenting about this item on its own merit, I did find the information very interesting, especially the ones about ZDDP and the marketing about Zn OR P,.....(the context being M1's current mention of P without Zn).

http://www.tinindianperformance.com/ZddPlus.htm

Its a good read and corroborates many things I read in the SAE papers.

Steve,

Intersting. They say:

"Can an oil or additive have Zn and not P and still contain ZDDP?

It’s important to note that the wear protection properties are due only to the characteristics of the ZDDP molecule and not to Zn or P in the oil in other forms or from other sources. This means that, if a particular motor oil mentions the addition of Zn alone or P alone, the ZDDP molecule is not present in that motor oil. The ratios of Zn and P can be manipulated by simply adding Zinc salts or phosphates, but again, this does not produce ZDDP and has no anti-wearing action.

Last, depleted ZDDP releases Zn and P into the motor oil and testing for levels of the pure elements is not a gauge of the status of the ZDDP level. What does this mean? If you see an oil additive or a motor oil listing only a level of Zn without a level of P, then there is no ZDDP in that product."

Nuff' said.

[ZLP]

Charles,

Are you recommending the Brad Penn over the M1Vtwin? I have been using the M1Vtwin since the whole oil subject came into light.

[cnavarro]

Yes, for the majority of owners the Brad Penn is sufficient. For those who drive a bit more, the Swepco has a bit more detergency. The synthetic motorcycle oils like the M1 V-Twin, Royal Purple Max Cycle, etc. are excellent oils and I would also highly recommend them, but they have a bit less detergency and require more frequent changes than one would expect, especially for the cost of these oils. I'd also say it's a must to have a cat bypass if you use M1 V-Twin (or it's 10w40 mx4t/4t racing variant), like with the other motorcycle oils, as they will clog the catalytic converter, which if it does occur, can fry your engine in no time flat because of elevated EGTs.

The above is more or less a summary of what has already been said, nothing is new nor changed from before. It's just hard to extract an answer without having a day and a half to review the thread in full :-)

[billybek]

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/images/oil_circ/voll-synthese.JPG
What about this stuff? From our host!