Is backdating/converting a Middie a stupid idea??

[cubby911T]

Guys, I have been gnawing on the idea of selling my Carrera Coupe, buying an early targa and converting in to a 3.2. Then I got to thinking that a mid-year car still has the narrow body I'm looking for and could be (fairly) easily backdated to a longhood-look. I could still do the 3.2 engine conversion and I'd already have the (somewhat) better suspension/brakes of a mid-year car plus some galvanization (if it's at least at '76).

Well, as I started calling around to price out 3.2 engines I got into a conversation with a very knowledgeable (albeit somewhat headstrong) guy from a motorsports shop here in the midwest. I explained my idea about the mid-year backdate/3.2 conversion and he all but called me insane!!! He said I was going about the idea completely backwards and that he has seen many costly tragedies result from going that route. He says the mid-year cars are pretty much worthless and that he would never ever use one as a platform for ANY kind of project. I pushed back with my reasoning as stated above, but he was absolutely adamant about not using anything other than an 84-89 Carrera as a basis for a backdate. He said wouldn't even use an SC! He did, however, support the idea of converting an early car to a 3.2 or 3.6.

So.....is this guy right? Is my idea a recipe for disaster? I realize that I would not get my money back out of a project like this, but how much more would I stand to lose (vs. using a 69-73) when/if it comes time to sell my special project? Using a middie would seem to offer me a really nice combination of attributes, and it would be a heck of a lot easier for me to source a solid mid-year car than a solid early car.

[JP911]

What do you plan to do with the car? Street, track, mix of both? If you just like the looks of the early cars and want a hot rod, but you're not too concerned about resale value (longhood purists will want a "real" longhood), then go for it. I'm not sure what the mech is talking about when he says "disaster". The weak point in the mid-year cars is the engine, and you plan to deal with that. I say go for it.

[Dantilla]

The basic tub is not that different from earlier or later tubs. Of course, galvanizing is a big plus.

I've thought of backdating a later car, but I think in a few years, as the classic looks of the Carrera become collectors, hacking up the body will be seen as silly as turbo conversions to longhoods are today.

I've got a 3.2 in a '73 right now. By 1973, the entire pan was galvanized, along with other areas that were found to have rust problems on early cars. While my car is not fully galvanized, the problem areas are.

For a major project, I can't think of a better starting point than the least-loved era. Leave the longhoods and late Carreras for the concours guys, and chop up the middies.

[cubby911T]

JP911: Mostly street use, occasional autocross use. Yes, basically I want an early-looking (ie: narrow fenders), lightweight hotrod that I don't feel badly about bastardizing.

Originally Posted by Dantilla

For a major project, I can't think of a better starting point than the least-loved era. Leave the longhoods and late Carreras for the concours guys, and chop up the middies.

My thinking exactly!!

[TRE Cup]

Doing a complete backdate with all the details can get expensive. Think about this version (but narrow fendered)
Ok- this is self serving since we make the bumpers for middies and flared (carrera, sc) but this can give you some ideas on what the car can look like without the hassle

iroc version front bumper



TRE front bumper





Rear bumper

[TRE Cup]

will you get your money back from doing this ? Heck no! the cost of a paint job, your 3.2 conversion, other upgrades (interior? suspension?) puts in in the top end of a cherry 89 Carrera...if you are lucky.
But it will be unique to your tastes and desires. With advice and help from people on this board, you can end up with a fast great handling and looking car.

sorry- for all the middie rear bumpers we have sold, i don't have an installed pic of one!

[dd74]

Beautiful stuff, Dave!

[TRE Cup]

pic of rear bumper on carrera flared car

[cubby911T]

TRE Cup: nice looking pieces you got there....but if I did this I would go the whole 9 yards and replace the bumpers altogher (as well as the fenders and hood).

[RWebb]

Define disaster?

It will be expensive and you will never recover the $$ or even 1/2 maybe not 1/3 - will the enjoyment compensate? -- only you can say.

Do you enjoy large projects as a DIYer? If you pay somebody else then it is getting near the crazy edge. Of course, I am glad to see crazy people keep Pcar shops in business in case I need their help some day (and we all do).

You might wait a year or 2 and see if the early car prices crash. Meanwhile look for a clean tub from a 911T or 912 to put a big motor in.

The later 911s are just a tad stiffer than than a midyear if that matters at all.

[cubby911T]

Originally Posted by RWebb

Define disaster?.....It will be expensive and you will never recover the $$ or even 1/2 maybe not 1/3 - will the enjoyment compensate? -- only you can say.

By disaster he meant of the financial variety. When you say "never recover....even 1/2 maybe not 1/3" are you referring to the overall cost or the cost of the upgrades only.

[Dantilla]

I did it this way-

I found my '73 at an insurance auction after an engine fire. Rust free, straight, nice interior, just a crispy engine and deck lid. Perfect candidate for an engine swap.

A friend bought a clean, low-mileage '87 targa that was crunched pretty hard in the nose- Our scorce for the engine, wiring harness, aluminum banana arms, and lots of other bits & pieces.

For several months, the two cars sat on jackstands side-by-side in my garage while parts were swapped. Having two cars to pick parts from, doing so much labor ourselves, and selling parts we didn't need let us build the car for far less than most who start a project like this.

[beamonk]

Figure out what you want. I think a mid year is a good starting point for about any project except a backdate, which can be done witha good deal of cutting and fitting. I got mine, fitted SC flares, fibreglass bumpers like TRE's, after going 3l I just did 3.6. It weighs 2350 dry with interior and a 3.6. Has galvanized body and not a ton of fluff. I wish I knew what I know now that is why I say figure out what you want, if you want a lightweight sleeper and need the early body style, go early, if you want a lightweight sleeper and can live with mid year, there you go. Just set your goals on the look you want and the power range and go for it. Otherwise you may spend a good deal of unnecessary bucks trying to figure out what you want before you get there. I sure did!

[911pcars]

+1 on what the Dave and other posters suggest.

If its of any consequence, the Carrera chassis is stiffer than a long-wheel base, early 911, the galvanized metal is a plus as well. Starting with an early chassis either means finding one with minimal or no rust or spending a lot of time/money to repair panels or get rid of the corrosion - sometimes a daunting task. While pretty mandatory, getting rid of rust is not high on the restoration list of things that are fun to do.

An alternative is to sell yours and find an early example (finished or project status) equipped close to what you want. Someone else's project is usual cheaper for its new owner.

Sherwood

[eimkeith]

start with a 964. There is additional metalwork involved in the cosmetic backdate, but OMG what a different car from the original...



whee!

[cubby911T]

The common theme here seems to be: What do I want? Well, I want a narrow-bodied targa with an early look (probably rolling on deep sixes), in exactly the color I want, and with the power and reliability of a 3.2 motronic engine. The early look could either be a "stock" early look or more of a 911R/RS-ish look (haven't quite decided yet, but leaning toward the latter). Either way with a 3.2 conversion , I would consider a car like that to be a sleeper due to the narrow body and skinny tires.

Preserving resale value or "correctness" is not as important to me as making the car exactly what I want in terms of shape, color, and power. Plus, I am looking forward to a do-it-myself (as much as possible) project that will be rewarding to me personally.

[GarryW]

I did exactly what you are describing last year except I placed a 3.6 engine it my roller. I started with a very inexpensive 77 coupe roller. After doing the project I decided to go with the RSR look, so I have torn it apart and in the middle of the new project. With what you are planning, the cost will not me so prohibitive like most of the other ones. I would not see any reason not to do as you are planning. However, if you decide to do RS look or RSR look, I would strongly suggest you buy someones aborted project half done and save tons of bucks. My two cents, good luck and have fun!..........Garry

[TRE Cup]

matt
there are plenty of rust free middie targa rollers out here. We turn them away due to the lack of demand.
Yes, with your goals, the end result will be pretty low in cost (compared to some of the other ideas posted here- not that there is anything "wrong" with a RSR !) and a heck of a lot of fun

db

[JP911]

Originally Posted by cubby911T

The common theme here seems to be: What do I want? Well, I want a narrow-bodied targa with an early look (probably rolling on deep sixes), in exactly the color I want, and with the power and reliability of a 3.2 motronic engine. The early look could either be a "stock" early look or more of a 911R/RS-ish look (haven't quite decided yet, but leaning toward the latter). Either way with a 3.2 conversion , I would consider a car like that to be a sleeper due to the narrow body and skinny tires.

Preserving resale value or "correctness" is not as important to me as making the car exactly what I want in terms of shape, color, and power. Plus, I am looking forward to a do-it-myself (as much as possible) project that will be rewarding to me personally.

With that in mind, I think a 76 or a 77 would be the perfect starting point. A later mid-year will be cheap, narrow body, galvanized, readily available, and ready to accept performance parts from 911s from almost all years up to 89.

[grudk]

One advantage in California to using '75 and earlier: NO SMOG CHECKS

If you want to tweak the engine and eliminate your cats...