Word from Shell and Castrol re: ZDDP etc.
 

Shell.ca was very open and forthcoming.
SHELL REPLY:

As I explained to you over the phone Phosphorus and Zinc content is not a criteria to be used in selecting the right oil for an engine. Rotella T 15W-40 meets API CJ-4, and supersedes CI-4 and previous specs. Maximum allowable Phosphorus content for API CJ-4 specified oils is 1200ppm. Phosphorus (S) and Zinc (Zn) comes from ZDDP additives used in the oil.

Although, S and Zn content of Rotella T 15W-40 was slightly lowered to meet CJ-4 specification, the performance of the oil has not been compromised compared to previous Rotella T with CI-4 spec. In fact, new Rotella T 15W-40 shows better wear resistance, deposit control and reduced emissions. This was achieved by the improvements in additive technologies and Shell's advanced oil formulation techniques.

However, if a customer is still insisting on a product with CI-4 spec then our Rimula Premium 15W-40 can be offered.

Technical Representative Lubes & Fuels
Shell Canada Products

CASTROL REPLY:

Unfortunately Castrol's oils formulations are proprietary information and are not released to the general public.
However, we can tell you that the ZDDP levels have been reduced.
We DO NOT recommend any of our GTX Dino oils for flat-tappet engines; we recommend Syntec for older cars.

Castrol Consumer Relations.

I called Castrol to confirm this.
They do not recommend any of their Dino oils (Including 20W50 and 15W40 Diesel) for our air-cooled engines (Or any engine with flat tappets)
So, forget about 20W50 GTX for track days.

For me, Castrol is out; Shell is in.
I like Diesel oil and plan to use either Rotella-T 15W40 with GM-EOS or Rimula 15W40 for the 911.
(The reason why I like Diesel oil is experience: Numerous high-mileage vehicles like my present old Volvo 240 with 300.000 km, original engine on 15W40 Diesel oil without EOS)

Any thoughts? :)

Gunter,

Good info.
I have been trying to get a hold of somebody at Brad Penn because I thought this was going to be the way to go but they obviously don't like to talk to Canada.

Question:

Where does one buy the Shell oil in BC?
And what is the GM-EOS?

Thanks

On another thread I thought someone mentioned that the Castrol "High Mileage" oil has the higher ZDDP levels. Did they mention anything about that particular oil?

Sounds like good feedback. I have been using Rotella with EOS since last Spring and at last valve adjustment all surfaces looked good and there is no metallic sludge on the drain magnet. So I agree with your plan. I am thinking about going to Brad Penn Oil since EOS is no longer available...

I'd like to share my real world experience with Rotella T 15w40 and Castrol 20w50. The PO used Castrol 20w50. I have read and had good experience with Rotella 15w40, so I decided to try it. It seemed to have no negative effects. In fact, it seemed a little quieter than with the Castrol, but couldn't be certain.

I changed back to Castrol 20w50 at my last oil change. I am no where near as happy as I was with Rotella T. It is quite a bit louder at start up and at normal operating temps. I'll either be going back to Rotella T 15w40 or with what you mention - Rimula Premium 15W-40. Anyone have any more info on this oil?

I spoke to Ken at American Refining last month, posted the info on Rennlist...

>>Just got this from Ken at American Refining today:

Zinc: 1200 ppm (.12%)
Phosphorus: 1100 ppm (.11%)<<

From Havoline:
Havoline (SL rated, Zn: .103% P: .094%), FWIW.

Royal Purple won't disclose either.

Canadian Tire has Rotella-T 15W40.
Check Lordco and Napa.
GM-EOS is General Motors Engine Oil Supplement.
The EOS is still available in Canada but don't know for how long.
GM-EOS is apparently similar to STP additive but I have no details.

After doing more research, it seems that Dino Diesel oils have more ZDDP and other goodies than other Dino oils.
I always liked Diesel oils because of the additives for high pressure and temps associated with Diesel engines.
I am also not completely convinced that an additive is needed (for street driving) if one can find an oil that has the API-CI-4 classification.
Additives may be a good thing.
It's an individual choice, or based on experience.

Castrol's answer seems to be evolving.

Here is their answer a year ago to a very similar question from a customer with a 1970 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Sports Coupe:

But I've read here and in other forums that EOS has been discontinued. Or has it just been temporarily removed and then reintroduced w/ a new formulation? Anybody try to buy any lately?

Gunter,
If you can get it, how much will you use? I've read anywhere from 2 to 23 oz per oil change.

Apparently STP in the red bottle is a good substitute.

I have also read about a product called LAT and Valvolene SynPower in the gold bottle as substitutes.

Local GM dealer says EOS is sold in various sizes for 4, 6, 8 cylinder engines.
Still some on the shelve but don't know for how long.

Gunter, have you found anyone in our area of the Province that supplies the Rimula Premium.

How much should be used in our engines?

No, but Shell Canada may be able to point to a supplier on Monday.

Per the advice of CNavarro, I've run Mobil1 V-Twin 20w50 for the last 8k miles in my 3.2 with good results?
Hard to say what qualifies as good results though... Virtually eliminated smoke at start up, and runs noticeably cooler at the track. Maybe 5-7* cooler on the hottest days? I've not run any oil analysis though...

Interestingly, I have put forth this ZDDP issue on a British forum and not even their oil expert seems to be completely aware of it. They also seem to believe there is a difference in the oil formulations here in Europe compared to in USA.

I am more than bewildered out here on this topic. Not sure what to think. I have had more than one recomendation from Euro specialists that for example the Mobil 1, 0w40 is a very good choice for my 85 Carrera.

Is it possible the Zn and P levels are still high enough in Euro formulations ?

I've been running Castrol GTX 20/50 in my 80SC with good results, very little smoke only when the car sits for a week or so. Last valve adjust was good, track temps have never gotten too high. I'll probably go to the high milage castrol on the next change. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/suppo...oilet_claw.gif

If you guys ignore the problem, and use the newer, revised oils, then you will have problems down the road in the future. The car will run fine today, but will wear out quicker.

Charles recommends the Swepco 306, which is what I'm running in my cars (topped off the 959 with it the other day). We sell this oil in our catalog, and are selling more and more due to the fact that they have promised not to change the anti-wear components of it.

-Wayne

Wayne, I thought Steve W & Charles were pushing the Brad Penn (purchased some recently per their advice). I also bought up cases of GM EOS after it was discontinued.

How does the Swepco compare to the BP, price-wise? Thanks.

Lots of good dicussion/data here: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/367300-ultimate-motor-oil-thread-why-we-hate-cj4-sm-oils-post3567095.html#post3567095

Bottom line, if the container says CJ-4 or SM, STAY AWAY. It does not matter if is states is meets previous standards, the data indicates otherwise.

Forget it, the oil companies do not give rats ass about older cars or the folks who own or care for them. Notice the lack of warnings from any company about the potential damage from reduced zinc and phosphorous while they dumbed down their products? We're a small, insignificant part of the market.

Hey Fred:

IMHO, both Swepco & Brad-Penn are comparable products and we stock both of them for that very reason,...:) I think they are very close in pricing, especially when factoring shipping.

We have Swepco in bulk for in-house use and stock quart containers of the 20w-50 Brad-Penn oil for in-house and mail order.

Flat tappets
 

is a misnomer. All tappets have a slight concave or convex cut to allow the tappet to rotate and not stay in on place. In the 911 the contact point between the valve stem head an the adjuster are slightly off center for the same reason.

I just bought some Shell Rotella T in 15/40. Is this stuff ok to run or not? I drive 1500 miles per year, and change oil once per year. No racing.

Thanks!

Carnutzzz,
With the info shared by Wayne, Charles and others, I'd stick w/Swepco or Brad Penn!

I plan to do just that. I wanted to change the oil before next weekend's mountain run however so timing is an issue.

I'll probably just run the Shell for a few months, then drop in some BP or Swepco.

Are we all comfortable with that? Should I drop in some additive?

I do like the idea of properly greased internal shiney bits.

I agree! This oil situation is very confusing, and seems to be changing all the time (a "fluid" situation, if you will).

Stuff like the Shell Rotella T seemed to be good for a while, but even that seems to now be reformulated.

Charles Navarro, last time I have seen, seemed to say that Castrol GTX has the right amount of zinc and phos. But I'm not sure anymore!

Fuch it, I just ordered 2 cases of Brad Penn. All the stuff other than Brad Penn or Swepco make me nervous now to use in my expensive engines.

With that few miles per year, I would just use the Rotella-T 15W40 and put in some GM-EOS for ease of mind.

I totally agree with BP or Swepco appears to be the best choice.
There are other factors like how much mileage per year, what climate do you live in, track-time or just street driving.
I still favor Diesel oil even though Steve points out that Diesel engines don't rev above 3000 RPM.
Like Charles said: "The Swepco 306 is a CI-4 15w40 diesel oil that is a phenomenal product in it's own right."

The last time I took the time to read through all the posts in the various oil threads, Castrol GTX 20/50 high mileage was a recommended oil because the high mileage additives were considered beneficial. Is this no longer the thinking of all the oil gurus?

Please, please, please does someone have a list of approved oils for early air cooled cars? Something that lists oils from best (I'm guessing Swepco 306 15w40 or Brad Penn Racing 20w50) to recommended only if you can't get or afford the other stuff (perhaps Castrol GTX 20w50 or Kendall GT-1 20w50)? Maybe like a top 10 list in order. Sure would help us guys who just want to put quality oil in and drive (not necessarily race) our cars. Thanks.

Per Cnavarro, Mobil 1 V-Twin 20w50 is the best overall choice, and I've been using it in my 3.2 for the last 8k miles with good results. It has some of the highest levels of Z & P of all the oils tested...

David - make it easy on yourself and use one of the two oils you listed. Brad Penn or Swepco.

Or use any of the old M1 you have lying around - I plan to do that then switch (assuming this is not completely resolved by the time for my next oil change - and I'm sure it won't be).

David,

From what I am seeing, the "best" is Brad Penn or Swepco. If you need to use another brand due to some issue, Castrol 20W-50 is ok but allow no more that 3,000 miles between changes.

The current Kendall 20W-50 is not the same as the stuff that made their name in the '60s. The stuff in the Brad Penn can is what used to be in the Kendall can.

I need to add my .02 here as well. This last weekend I checked my oil level after 2000 miles and found it three quarts low. The motor only has 9500 miles on it total. I have been running Mobil 1 15/50 except for the 1000 mile break in period which I was using Kendall 20/50. Since then it has been Mobil 1 15/50 with GM EOS added to it. I think the damage was done in the first 1000 miles. It is driven on the street and never beaten. I think I have been stung on the oiling issues being discussed here. I need to do a little more home work before I dive in and tear the motor apart again but I am pretty sure my valve guides are toast. Will post again when I've checked the guides for wear.

Shell
 

I just bought Shell Rotella T Synthetic 5W40 for my '86, it is rated CI-4 and CI-4 Plus. Is it on the "approved" list? I have been using Mobil 1 0W40, gonna get it outta there ASAP.

Syncroid - any problem you may have would not have been caused by your oil selection, particularly since you added EOS which would have resolved the problem of low ZDDP levels in reformulated Mobil 1.

The Swepco 306 is a good oil, but it isn't synthetic. For my hot turbo, I'd prefer a synthetic oil.

Brad Penn.....Bradford, Pennsylvania......
....see online American Refining Group, Inc. (for your reading pleasure and info.) with facts, history, etc.
...In part, formerly "Kendall"...
...Penn1 20W50 Racing Oil.....good stuff. :) ...the "Green Oil"...
In the Puget Sound area Fred Williams (Freddy's Engines) in Snohomish will deliver at a good price. :cool:
No affiliation.

I didn't use the EOS for the 1000 mile break in. This was two years ago before all the flap about the oil additives being taken out. If it is not an oiling issue then I will be having a word or two with our machinist. :mad:

for 1st 1k miles the assembly lube and Mb should he really high & at least partially ameliorate using 'normal' oil

We ran the old Kendall GT-1 20w-50 (now called Brad-Penn oil) in our 935's for many years and nothing generates peak oil temps like a 700-800HP 3.2 @ 1.5-1.6 bar,...:)

All the innards and turbochargers held up very well given the operating environments and temperatures and a lot of other IMSA racers had similiar experiences.

IMHO, its better than many so-called synthetics.