Word from Shell and Castrol re: ZDDP etc.

[Gunter]

Shell.ca was very open and forthcoming.
SHELL REPLY:

As I explained to you over the phone Phosphorus and Zinc content is not a criteria to be used in selecting the right oil for an engine. Rotella T 15W-40 meets API CJ-4, and supersedes CI-4 and previous specs. Maximum allowable Phosphorus content for API CJ-4 specified oils is 1200ppm. Phosphorus (S) and Zinc (Zn) comes from ZDDP additives used in the oil.

Although, S and Zn content of Rotella T 15W-40 was slightly lowered to meet CJ-4 specification, the performance of the oil has not been compromised compared to previous Rotella T with CI-4 spec. In fact, new Rotella T 15W-40 shows better wear resistance, deposit control and reduced emissions. This was achieved by the improvements in additive technologies and Shell's advanced oil formulation techniques.

However, if a customer is still insisting on a product with CI-4 spec then our Rimula Premium 15W-40 can be offered.

Technical Representative Lubes & Fuels
Shell Canada Products

CASTROL REPLY:

Unfortunately Castrol's oils formulations are proprietary information and are not released to the general public.
However, we can tell you that the ZDDP levels have been reduced.
We DO NOT recommend any of our GTX Dino oils for flat-tappet engines; we recommend Syntec for older cars.

Castrol Consumer Relations.

I called Castrol to confirm this.
They do not recommend any of their Dino oils (Including 20W50 and 15W40 Diesel) for our air-cooled engines (Or any engine with flat tappets)
So, forget about 20W50 GTX for track days.

For me, Castrol is out; Shell is in.
I like Diesel oil and plan to use either Rotella-T 15W40 with GM-EOS or Rimula 15W40 for the 911.
(The reason why I like Diesel oil is experience: Numerous high-mileage vehicles like my present old Volvo 240 with 300.000 km, original engine on 15W40 Diesel oil without EOS)

Any thoughts?

[Johnb911]

Gunter,

Good info.
I have been trying to get a hold of somebody at Brad Penn because I thought this was going to be the way to go but they obviously don't like to talk to Canada.

Question:

Where does one buy the Shell oil in BC?
And what is the GM-EOS?

Thanks

[Gogar]

On another thread I thought someone mentioned that the Castrol "High Mileage" oil has the higher ZDDP levels. Did they mention anything about that particular oil?

[s5uewf]

Sounds like good feedback. I have been using Rotella with EOS since last Spring and at last valve adjustment all surfaces looked good and there is no metallic sludge on the drain magnet. So I agree with your plan. I am thinking about going to Brad Penn Oil since EOS is no longer available...

[911 in SC]

I'd like to share my real world experience with Rotella T 15w40 and Castrol 20w50. The PO used Castrol 20w50. I have read and had good experience with Rotella 15w40, so I decided to try it. It seemed to have no negative effects. In fact, it seemed a little quieter than with the Castrol, but couldn't be certain.

I changed back to Castrol 20w50 at my last oil change. I am no where near as happy as I was with Rotella T. It is quite a bit louder at start up and at normal operating temps. I'll either be going back to Rotella T 15w40 or with what you mention - Rimula Premium 15W-40. Anyone have any more info on this oil?

[84_Carrera]

I spoke to Ken at American Refining last month, posted the info on Rennlist...

>>Just got this from Ken at American Refining today:

Zinc: 1200 ppm (.12%)
Phosphorus: 1100 ppm (.11%)<<

From Havoline:
Havoline (SL rated, Zn: .103% P: .094%), FWIW.

Royal Purple won't disclose either.

[Gunter]

Originally Posted by Johnb911

Gunter,

Good info.
I have been trying to get a hold of somebody at Brad Penn because I thought this was going to be the way to go but they obviously don't like to talk to Canada.

Question:

Where does one buy the Shell oil in BC?
And what is the GM-EOS?

Thanks

Canadian Tire has Rotella-T 15W40.
Check Lordco and Napa.
GM-EOS is General Motors Engine Oil Supplement.
The EOS is still available in Canada but don't know for how long.
GM-EOS is apparently similar to STP additive but I have no details.

[Gunter]

After doing more research, it seems that Dino Diesel oils have more ZDDP and other goodies than other Dino oils.
I always liked Diesel oils because of the additives for high pressure and temps associated with Diesel engines.
I am also not completely convinced that an additive is needed (for street driving) if one can find an oil that has the API-CI-4 classification.
Additives may be a good thing.
It's an individual choice, or based on experience.

[David E. Clark]

Originally Posted by Gunter

...
CASTROL REPLY:

Unfortunately Castrol's oils formulations are proprietary information and are not released to the general public.
However, we can tell you that the ZDDP levels have been reduced.
We DO NOT recommend any of our GTX Dino oils for flat-tappet engines; we recommend Syntec for older cars.

Castrol Consumer Relations.

Castrol's answer seems to be evolving.

Here is their answer a year ago to a very similar question from a customer with a 1970 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Sports Coupe:

Thank you for contacting Castrol North America.

Castrol is aware of articles in enthusiast magazines and web- sites, as
well as after-market parts manufacturer discussions concerning GF-4 engine
oils and cam-shaft durability issues in older performance vehicles. Some
consumers suspect the lower level of ZDDP in GF-4 oils may be causing
these failures. Castrol is currently investigating this issue.

If you wish not to use a GF-4 oil in your 1970 Cutlass, Castrol does
offer the following products that contain Zinc at a level that is higher than
the Zinc level found in oils (API SG) marketed during the "muscle car" era
of time:

* Castrol GTX 20W-50 (SL,SM)
* Castrol GTX Diesel 15W-40 (CI4,CH4,CG4,CF4,CF,SL)
* Castrol GTX High Mileage 20W-50 (SL,SM)
* Castrol HD 30 (SL,SM)
* Castrol HD 40 (SL,SM)
* Castrol Syntec Blend Truck 15W-40 (CI4,CH4,CG4,CF4,CF,SL)(Semi-
synthetic)
* Castrol Tection Extra 15W-40 (CI4Plus, CI4,CH4,CG4,CF4,SL)
* Castrol Hypuron S 15W-40 (CI4Plus,CH4,CG4,SL)(Semi-synthetic)

Thank you again for your continuing patronage.

Castrol Consumer Relations

[Paulporsche]

But I've read here and in other forums that EOS has been discontinued. Or has it just been temporarily removed and then reintroduced w/ a new formulation? Anybody try to buy any lately?

Gunter,
If you can get it, how much will you use? I've read anywhere from 2 to 23 oz per oil change.

Apparently STP in the red bottle is a good substitute.

I have also read about a product called LAT and Valvolene SynPower in the gold bottle as substitutes.

[Gunter]

Local GM dealer says EOS is sold in various sizes for 4, 6, 8 cylinder engines.
Still some on the shelve but don't know for how long.

[76carrera3.0]

Gunter, have you found anyone in our area of the Province that supplies the Rimula Premium.

[Paulporsche]

How much should be used in our engines?

[Gunter]

Originally Posted by 76carrera3.0

Gunter, have you found anyone in our area of the Province that supplies the Rimula Premium.

No, but Shell Canada may be able to point to a supplier on Monday.

[PatrickB]

Per the advice of CNavarro, I've run Mobil1 V-Twin 20w50 for the last 8k miles in my 3.2 with good results?
Hard to say what qualifies as good results though... Virtually eliminated smoke at start up, and runs noticeably cooler at the track. Maybe 5-7* cooler on the hottest days? I've not run any oil analysis though...

[livi]

Interestingly, I have put forth this ZDDP issue on a British forum and not even their oil expert seems to be completely aware of it. They also seem to believe there is a difference in the oil formulations here in Europe compared to in USA.

I am more than bewildered out here on this topic. Not sure what to think. I have had more than one recomendation from Euro specialists that for example the Mobil 1, 0w40 is a very good choice for my 85 Carrera.

Is it possible the Zn and P levels are still high enough in Euro formulations ?

[glewis80SC]

I've been running Castrol GTX 20/50 in my 80SC with good results, very little smoke only when the car sits for a week or so. Last valve adjust was good, track temps have never gotten too high. I'll probably go to the high milage castrol on the next change.

[Wayne 962]

If you guys ignore the problem, and use the newer, revised oils, then you will have problems down the road in the future. The car will run fine today, but will wear out quicker.

Charles recommends the Swepco 306, which is what I'm running in my cars (topped off the 959 with it the other day). We sell this oil in our catalog, and are selling more and more due to the fact that they have promised not to change the anti-wear components of it.

-Wayne

[84_Carrera]

Wayne, I thought Steve W & Charles were pushing the Brad Penn (purchased some recently per their advice). I also bought up cases of GM EOS after it was discontinued.

How does the Swepco compare to the BP, price-wise? Thanks.

[HarryD]

Lots of good dicussion/data here: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/367300-ultimate-motor-oil-thread-why-we-hate-cj4-sm-oils-post3567095.html#post3567095

Bottom line, if the container says CJ-4 or SM, STAY AWAY. It does not matter if is states is meets previous standards, the data indicates otherwise.