Sunroof Removal/weld Shut

[desgoud]

Has Anyone Removed Their Sunroof?
I Need The Extra Head Room In My 1984 911. I Have Lowered The Seat Rails. I Am Using Recaro Srd's But Still Need Room. I'd Like To Talk To Someone Who Has Removed The Roof Assembly And Welded The Roof Shut. Any Comments? Thanks Mike

[Inniswhe]

Just wondering how tall you are. I am going to look at an 84 sunroof car this weekend and I suspect this will be the issue for me as well at 6'3". I was hoping if I am within 1-1.5" I could solve it by lowering and /or changing stock sport seats to SRD's.

How much did your seats gain over stock ?

I am curious as well regarding the respnses to this sunroof deletion option.

[desgoud]

HELLO INNISWHE - I TO AM 6'-3" TALL WITH BIG HAIR. DRIVING WITH OUT THE HELMET IS FINE. I HAVE FLAT HAIR AFTER BUT DRIVING IS GOOD. MY PROBLEM IS ON THE TRACK WITH THE HELMET. I LIKE TO SIT UP RIGHT, I FEEL MORE IN CONTROL. IF I AM TO LOW OR MOUNT THE SEAT TO THE FLOOR IT FEELS LIKE I LOOK UP AND OVER THE STEERING WHEEL AND MY LEGS ARE STRAIGHT OUT 90 degs. OFF MY TORSO. NOT GOOD FOR ME. WITH THE SEAT HEIGHT NOW MY SHOULDERS ARE ALIGNED WITH THE DOOR WINDOW SILL. I CAN RECLINE THE SEAT BACK SOME BUT ITS NOT ENOUGH BECAUSE I AM THAN HAVING TO REACH OUT FOR THE WHEEL. IF I SLIDE FORWARD TO SHORTEN THE REACH MY KNEES ARE JAMMED UP. I HAVE FOUND ONE POSITION THAT IS SO-SO BUT MY HELMET IS PRESSED TO THE CEILING. NOT THE BEST. FOR ME I DON'T LIKE THE SUNROOF, ITS NOISY, NOT BIG ENOUGH TO FEEL THE OUT DOORS. I NEVER USE IT. I DID NOT MEASURE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE OLD WORN OUT STOCK SEAT AND THE NEW SRD BUT IT WAS MIN. MAYBE A 3/8 TO A 1/2". IT MAY SEEM EXTREME AND I'M SURE COSTLY BUT THE SUN ROOF HAS TO GO. I WOULD SHED ABOUT 70lbs AND GAIN ABOUT 1.5".
I WAS JUST ASKING TO SEE IF THERE MAYBE A SNAP IN PANEL OR SO EXPERIENCE OUT THERE.
GOOD LUCK WITH YOUR SEARCH, I DON'T CARE FOR THEM BUT YOU MAY TRY A TARGA. I THINK THEY HAVE MORE HEAD ROOM. LET ME KNOW HOW YOU MAKE OUT.
MICHAEL

[mcvgums]

Just had my sunroof welded on Monday and it looks great! I started by removing the sunroof and assembly, and adding a fiberglass panel and epoxy. It looked great, just like I had a sunroof,but it was closed. I decided I really wanted a proper coupe, so I took the skin from the sunroof and had it welded in with supports. I will have a headliner installed, otherwise I would have gained 1-2 inches above the driver seat. I removed mine more for weight and aesthetics and not for headroom. You will be very surprised how heavy the sunroof assembly is!!

[Inniswhe]

mcvgums, is the fiberglass panel something that can be purchased ? where?
Also with the fiberglass panel or welded in option, will it permit a standard coupe sunroof delete headliner to be installed ?

Thanks

[mcvgums]

The fiberglass pannel was made and cut, then it was glued in with the felt and normal weatherstripping. It looked good, but I was worried about the flex and the paint cracking. The welded skin off of the sunroof top is finnished in metal and reinforced with some bracing. I think that the delete headliner could be installed, but it won't then help with headroom.

[desgoud]

MCVGUMS - Thanks for the info. I guess there would be some flex with the fiberglas panel, but thats an interesting idea. Depending on the glue or fasteners you maybe be able to remove it at times and store it like a targa top. How did the fiberglas panel work out with the curve of the roof?
Also you said you later welded in the original sunroof skin/panel? I guess a good body shop knows but how did they fill the space were the weather strip would be?
The other question that comes to mind, are you saying that the headliner for a non-sunroof car takes up almost the same space?
thanks again for input.
Michael

[mcvgums]

The fiberglass panel cannot be removed because it is epoxy holding it in, if epoxy is not used, it will not be water tight.

The body shop made a frame with bracing for the skin and welded it in, you cannot tell the car is not a coupe! The frame and skin together did not weigh much at all compared to the sunroof.

The headliner is not in yet, but I think it will take up a similar amount of space as the old one.

[Don Plumley]

Getty sells a replacement fiberglass panel. In mine, I spit the outer sunroof shell, cut out all the underpinnings from the roof, then tack welded in using 1/4" angle stock. Gap is filled with standard silicone caulk. Ugly as sin.

[desgoud]

Thanks guys - keep the good comments coming they have sparked some good ideas. I am getting excited about this project though it seems crazy to tear apart the headliner and assoc. interior parts. but I look forward to working this puzzle out.
I am new to all this and it may seem ho-hum to other projects, but a start.
The other thing and real goal is the track time in a comfortable position.
lets hear more!

[9dreizig]

We welded one into Chris Bennets "phoenix" it was a ***** to get smooth ( sanding, fill, etc) Do a search I think there were pics ( try Plaid Lint on the search)

[desgoud]

Here is a photo of my car.
thanks again
DES-GOUD

[jmshepard]

I bought a non sunroof roof from a salvage yard. The local shop bonded the old new skin to the sunroof roof (if that makes sense) to achieve the smooth look. I had already used a fiberglass skin without success. The leading edge had started to de-bond from the roof. I was several hundred miles from home and had to use Home Despot metal screws to travel home. BTW, I weighed the removed sunroof mechanism and it came in at 37 ugly pounds.
Jim S.

[Dennis Kalma]

I am planning to do the same to my '89, along with removing the drip rails. I have the section from a wreck...I get a little concerned about keeping the proper curves and all. I was going to get an excellent TIG welder guy to come do the whole thing and was **assuming** that he could do it warp free with careful welding. Am I wrong?

I was also going to lead the joint (as opposed to filler) if any was needed....not so much that I like the weight, but I do not want cracks on the roof.

Oh yeah, I am doing it because I am 6' 4", and while I fit my '75 with sunroof, I want more head room...

Dennis

[BoxxerSix]

Having worked at a restoration body shop and done this MANY times on various cars in the past here's some of my opinions:

1) If you're going to do it, the absolute best way is to clip an non-sunroof roof skin from another car inplace of your roof and proceed from there. It's not that difficult and in reality doesn't cost much more than a patch panel does. It also yields a final result that's much cleaner and 100x more resistant to cracking/waves in the finish as the seams are in smaller, less flexing areas that receive less stress as a whole.

2) If above is not an option for you, welding a patch panel inplace does work but I HIGHLY recommend that once you get to to the stage where the fillers are in that you place the car outside in direct sunlight for days, if not a couple weeks, to bake the chemical from the filler and allow shrinkage to occur. ALL body fillers will shrink with time and heat and if you proceed too fast from filler to primer/paint you will get waves in your final finish tat will not come out w/o going back down to filler again. Even after two weeks of baking, filler may still shrink and creep. It's obviously best to use as minimal as possible. This is especially true for dark colored cars which absorb more heat into the body.

3) Patch panels to be welded in should have an underlap flange, not but welded as that will flex and cause cracks/waves in the finish.

4) The absolute best base filler material to use for this is Upol Fiberall. Don't ask me, just use it. @ part system that's about $38 for resin/hardener. I've used damn near every product out there and nothing comes close to it sofar.



edit....someone mentioned lead.......lead is good and oldskool, just find someone who REALLY knows what they're doing with it. Done right it's a superior filler, done wrong and it's ugly head is worse than that of bad filler..

[Dennis Kalma]

Great advice and thanks Adam, but I am surprised that an underlap flange is the way to go.....I guess I had always understood that a good butt weld was as good as anything....can you elaborate? I am not disagreeing at all, just want to learn....

Thanks

Dennis

[BoxxerSix]

Glady

When welding body panels in, the biggest concern is heat distortion and then when finally metal finished, load distibution over the weld seam. The welded seam is naturally harder than the rest of the surrounding sheet metal. Being so, if the panel flexes at all(and a roof will) the stress across the welded seam vs that of the rest of the panel is different and will result in risers as the panel flexeds around the seam in an area within ~1mm to either side of the seam itself. Being across such a thin area this shows in the pain as a wave.

There are simple hand operated air flangers out there, like these ones that I have http://www.redhillsupply.com/Air-Flange-Tool-and-Auto-Body-Repair.htm These tools allow you to flange the sheet metal down one thickness of itself and create a 10-15mm stepped flange. Now when welding, the patch piece is welded along the exposed outer seam as normal, but the underlying 10-15mm perimeter flange extends out past that portion of the seam but underneath the outer skin. You(or the body man) then welds that flange to the outer skin from the inside of the car. Metal finish and bodywork continue as normal.



Black indicates the sheet metal accordingly and red dots indicate weld seam. the gap in between the flanged area is just there for show. It doesn't exist once completed( usually taken up and clamped via Cleco clamps or rivets then holes tack welded shut).

What this does is distribute the flex forces across a much wider transistion rather than a thing butt welded seam, and reduces the wave effect that can occur from such a task in a large flat panel(Ie roof or long quarter skin)

This is really applicable to things like roof, door, and quarter skins where long straight lines and/or large flat surfaces occur. Things like wheel flares and the like can be butt welded.

This why I say it's better to weld an entire single roof skin on at and into existing body panel seams(a pillars, door jambs, etc) as those areas are mcuh more resistant to flexing, hide the welds 100x better, and makes a much cleaner look from the inside if someone to every strip the car to a bare chassis(for whatever reasons may be). Having done it myself on many cars, it's realistically not any more difficult. I consider it easier to do so as you're not worried as much about heat distortion in those areas, nor are you running into issues with maintaining a continuous arc in the roofline.......the entire skin already has that

[PcarPhil]

I agree with everything that Adam has said - replacing the entire roof section is the best way.

If/when I do another sunroof delete I'll probably go the route of flanging the existing sunrood hole, cutting out a roof panel section from a non-sunroof car, then weld it in.

I did a sunroof delete on my widebody project and used a mix of the stock (gutted) sunroof panel, filler metal, epoxy, and welding.

[Dennis Kalma]

Thanks for all the great knowledge guys....but another dumb question...

If you have a choice between flanging the roof or flanging the cut out section that you are welding in, what is the best choice? Does it matter?

I would imagine doing the roof would essentially 'stiffen' the roof contour and put a place where you could fit the weld in panel with minimal stress.....but the other way is sort of the same...Yes?

Dennis

[dad911]

Originally Posted by BoxxerSix

...
1) If you're going to do it, the absolute best way is to clip an non-sunroof roof skin from another car inplace of your roof and proceed from there. .......

Where would you cut/weld it? At the gutters, or at the pillars?