FYI, confirmed electrical part was my key-binding; without the electrical switch, key rotates freely without binding in the lock. Still waiting on the part though. Guess that's the downside of Fleabay... can't specify need it overnight. :)

good luck with Evilbay. I hope you got the oem part because it's not fun to do that job twice.

Hear you there. I got a 964 PN, looks the same though. If it works the 1st turn (unlike what my old one was doing often), turning back to Off shouldn't be an issue, I guess.

I think I'll be copying some of that Yankee Ingenuity & JB Welding the philips bit on the screw. :)

I thought the piece was coming in via UPS (specified on their checkout), but arrived tonight via USPS.

84

You could put a dab of grease in the upper screw hole of the electrical part. Then put the top screw into it. Then put the switch into place. The grease should keep the screw from falling out. And since you will not yet have plugged the part with the wires on, you will have a bit more room to get the screw driver up there and engaged. Finding a Phillips screw of proper size in your junk box might help also.

Lower screw piece of cake.

Walt Fricke

I'm about to do this. Has anyone just left the top screw off, or do you think it would be secure enough with just the bottom screw? Would make for a much easier job if needed again.

I never put the top screw back. I had really intended to. But, well, I didn't...

The mechanical fit is plenty good enough to locate the switch in the lock, and the turning force is obviously in a different plane.

The single screw holds it in place just fine. Even taking the ignition harness off doesn't cause me any concerns.

Okie Dokie, the new electrical half's in, and no fire. The mechanical key part is smoother, but still wants to bind just a touch from off to turning clockwise - not bad though.

Sooooo, off to the other parts. Before I dive back under, where's the 14-pin connector you mention? Specific locations of the grounds to clean, etc?

Thanks all.

Hi Fred, the 14 pin connector is just about under where your coil sits. It will be just forward on the flat body panel, where the engine compartment fuses and relays are located. Good luck, Tony.

Disconnect the battery before opening the 14-pin connector.
Pry carefully with a small screwdriver.
Use dielectric grease on the pins.
I would check the connections on the starter Solenoid; the yellow wire coming from the ignition switch can get tired over the years.
There is a relay kit available to carry the load instead of the switch.
It mounts easily underneath next to the starter. The relay gets power from the main Terminal (Big Black and Red wire) The yellow wire goes to activate the relay instead of the Solenoid and then the relay powers the Solenoid. (Less load on the electrical portion of the ignition switch and the yellow wire)
It also helps to clean all connections to the Solenoid including all ground straps.
Have you ever cleaned the area on the body where the negative cable from the battery connects?
It's well hidden and usually neglected. Open the bolt holding the cables to the body, clean everything and reconnect with dielectric grease.
Good luck. :)

Ok, got the connector. What a tough setup to work with. 1st time working with that kind of connector... reminds me of the build-it-yourself kits from when I was a kid! I had been looking at the block of 3 mini-connectors wondering if that was where you guys meant. I'd pulled the cover off the fuse block, but didn't see the 14-pin connector attached in there. On mine, it's REARWARD (back of car, not "back" of engine bay / firewall) of the coil / fuel filter, under the fuse block cover. There are also 2 unused connectors that were under there, and a round relay style connector with nothing in it. Anything I need to worry about, not being used?

Anyway, there was actually very little oxidation on the 14 pin connector, but I went through & hit the pins & receptacles anyway - no difference. I ended up removing the entire bracket / fuse mini-block as a unit, including the 12 pin connector / relay-looking unit as well to make room to work in there.

Confirmed with the Mrs. turning the key, I have no solenoid click at the starter still.

Any other thoughts before I get frustrated & hand it off to the mech? Right now I can play with it, haven't sold the 2nd car yet, but have been showing it so that might change.

Do you have to remove the halfshaft to replace the starter? I'm not saying that's what it is, just thinking down the line.


Edit:
Gunter, thanks for the extra info, missed it as I was posting.
Normally on other cars I've had, if the Neg / Batt. cable is shorting / bad, I would hear an audible pop & would have to wiggle the connection to the cable to make contact again, to get system-wide lights, etc. - is this not so with the 911?

I'll dive back under for the starter / relay connections & check those also.

Ground straps - tranny and battery. And clean where they fit.

Check the solenoid gets 12V when you turn the key to start (although it's hard to test it's getting adequate current).

It could still be the starter solenoid. They do die, when they get tired.

With a 1500-mile old lightweight starter on mine, I was pretty sure that wasn't my problem.

But you might want to switch your ignition to Run and then switch a good, fat, 12V supply (i.e. from another battery) directly to the solenoid just to be sure..

I did all of the above on mine - and they're the most usual problems - but I'm convinced it was my 4-way plug from the ignition switch harness through the bulkhead that was the culprit for me.

I had 100% no-start, popped the 14 pin off to test for 12V to the starter harness (having already remade that connector and the tranny ground strap a few days before), and, on a wild hair, plugged in a spare ignition harness and another switch. Broooom.

Plugged back in the original switch and it worked fine as well.

On the basis that I'd only touched two things since I'd gone from 100% no-start to a reliable start, I cleaned the 14 pin connector on the relay panel in the engine bay (sockets and pins) with fine abrasive paper and a fiberglass pen, and then spread the pins for a better contact, and did the same to the rubber ignition plug into the bulkhead.

Haven't had a problem since - touch wood... My wrench couldn't believe it.

Good luck!

spuggy:
Quote: "I did all of the above on mine - and they're the most usual problems - but I'm convinced it was my 4-way plug from the ignition switch harness through the bulkhead that was the culprit for me. "

Please, describe where this 4-way plug is located.

Thanks.

You can feel the ignition wire bundle, and trace it to the bulkhead fitting. On a left hand drive car, it is on the dash board bulkhead, just a little to the left of where the ignition switch is located. This is really hard to describe, but when you see it or feel it the first time, you will then be able to just push in on the connector to make sure it is still tight, when you can't start the car. You can also see it on the bulkhead, if you get a flashlight and get your body where you can see up behind the knee bar pad, just behind the ignition switch area. Hopefully I made it fairly clear. Good luck!!

Yup, what 3.2 CAB said. The round wiring block that plugs onto the back of the ignition switch, ends in a little rubber moulded plug and also has a few flying wires (that go to the headlight switch, I think?).

There's a line of these rubber plugs directly under the steering column (LHD), both the column stalks (hi/lo and flasher) have the same plugs.

Because they have a hard ring (keyed) that fits into a seal around the socket, they can be firm when plugged back into the bulkhead socket - and the resistance you feel can be from that (weathersealing?), rather than from the electrical connection itself.

When I had the no-start problem, my wrench told me to check that this was tight. And it sure seemed to be.

I think that where ever my problem actually was, it was passing 12V, just not very much of it. Which made testing with a multimeter set to voltage futile. My solenoid would usually not click at first, but would sometimes start to click after you'd tried a few times... Gosh, I'm glad that appears to be over.

Fred

Hope you got it sorted out yesterday. But if not:

Looks like you are narrowing down to a solenoid issue. If you trace the voltage all the way to the starter's solenoid connector, chances are good that all the connections along the way are OK. Not 100%, as they might not pass enough current for the solenoid to work. But a first start. So, if the connection at the solenoid shows 12V with the starter switch in the start position, but not when it is not, time for the in-car solenoid test.

Which is to jumper from the big battery cable attached there - a pretty reliable source of amperage - to the solenoid connection on the starter. Which is where the smaller wire, all by itself, attaches. It is the one you traced back from the switch to the 14 pin connector, which is what gets it to the engine and then on to the starter. At the starter it is apt to be bundled with a larger red wire (the alternator wire), which attaches to the big battery cable connector but heads in the opposite direction.

If jumpering (carefully, but you don't need the ignition key on, and are better off without it being on) doesn't cause the starter to turn the engine, and if the transmission ground is working at all well, it is time to pull the starter. This is basically what you'd do with the starter out of the car - use jumper cables or something similarly stout, hook up the starter to a battery, and jumper over to the solenoid. A shop could do something fancier (checking resistance, current draw, stuff like that), but this is a pretty decent go/no go test.

If the starter doesn't do anything, your next move is clearer.

Removal of the starter is not a lot of fun, but - like the ignition switch - it's more awkward than anything else. Dirtier, too. You don't need to remove the half-shaft. I bet the archives are full of discussion about how to pull a starter, so you might want to search. I bet someone took pictures and did a step by step with wrench sizes and all. Lots of us have had to do that job.

The big wires are held on with a 13mm nut, so that comes off (surely you didn't need Dr. Gunter's admonition about unhooking the cable at the battery for this). Then you have two nuts on 10mm studs. The lower one stares you in the face. That stud attaches to the transmission case. The tricky one is on top, and also serves to hold engine to tranny (not to worry, there are 4 such attachments, and three do a fine job by themselves when you aren't driving it). The factory setup uses a barrel nut up top, so you need a metric hex bit for your socket wrench set. (Me, I use a regular 15mm wrench nut). If you lie under the engine, head to the front and nose about at the tranny drain plug, you can reach your right hand up over the tranny and reach this nut. You can also manipulate your socket wrench (with extension) with your left. The right hand can guide the hex into the nut. Think of it as hugging your transmission.

Easier on the back than pretzeling under the dashboard.

I've never futzed with the solenoid itself. My 1977 starter continues to run fine, and on the track car I use one of the light weight geared starters. With the starter out you could bypass the solenoid to see if it is a starter issue only.

In fact (looking at a manual), you could do this with the starter in the car. The solenoid has two studs sticking out of it's front end. One has the big wires from the car on it. The other has a wire that goes directly to the starter. If you short (jumper) these two terminals (with battery connected), the starter should whirrrrrr . It may not turn the engine, because part of what the solenoid does (I think) is to push the starter pinion gear out so it engages the flywheel ring gear. And it has to do this before the starter starts to turn, so you don't have a moving little gear trying to engage a stopped gear. But no matter - if you get the whirrrr, the starter itself may be OK, but the solenoid isn't working.

However, I'm pretty sure that you won't be able to remove only the solenoid with the starter in the car, so this is kind of academic.

Walt Fricke

Fred, more info;
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/382560-question-cylinder-head-temp-sensor.html?highlight=YELLOW+WIRE

Well, that'll teach me to assume... :)


It's NOT the ignition switch. It's NOT the starter. Both have been replaced.
I'd like to be doing more electrical testing & resolve this myself (with y'all's help of course), but I'm without a vehicle now since something in the clutch (feels like pressure plate fingers) has gone on my 2nd / winter car.

So I'm likely to jump / pop her & head down to the local guy. Thought I'd say thanks & if something changes & I'm able to keep messing with it, I'll be back in the thread.

Battery ground is fine. Trans ground is intact, but feels VERY flexible. Not sure how rigid it's supposed to be. The strap has some corrosion / oxidation (green showing in the "threads", but the ends are clean.

One thing I noticed as I threw my hands up for the night... the (3) front firewall connectors... the right-most one (which ties into the ign switch IIRC) will rotate by hand. The other two are more in-place. Thought I'd mention.

Fred

If I recall, you traced 12V power all the way back at least to the 14 pin connector. When the key was turned to start, 12V appeared back there. Chances are reasonable that also appeared at the starter solenoid relay.

And you say the starter is good.

So is the starter getting power from the big battery cable? I have heard of that cable not making contact in the lug that attaches to the battery positive terminal. Rare, but perhaps possible due to corrosion over time or whatnot. Easy to check - you shove a knife in so it makes contact with the wires and the lug and have someone turn the key to start. I suppose the same could be true back where the ring connector crimps onto the big cable at the starter post attachment.

A long shot. Oh - are you sure your battery is more or less full of juice? At least 12V, maybe put it on the charger for a while for good measure? When you get in the car and turn the key to ON, does the red alternator light come on? (it should).

The tranny ground strap is supposed to be pretty flexible. As long as the parts that contact other parts are clean on it (and on the tranny and chassis), all should be well.

The round multi-pin rubber covered firewall connectors can rotate - they just fit into a round hole as I recall. The rubber connector parts are, however, keyed so they will only go in one way.

It is possible to hook these up wrong - at least two of them will interchange connectors. Which bolixes things up. Don't ask how I know. But that can't be your problem - no reason for you to have pulled them all out at once, if at all.

Quite a puzzle. Sorry you couldn't get it working.

Walt Fricke

Okie Dokie, a buddy of mine came down tonight & stuffed me back under the car. Here's what we have.

1) We originally got .093V at the yellow solenoid wire on key-to-start, prior to the futzing around. We got the same number (basically) at the 14-pin connector in the engine bay. So, we deduced it's up front somewhere.

2) Testing the wires, trying to pull the connector down off the electrical ignition switch a little to probe wires (#50, etc.), Gary broke the new switch setup - the connector stuck to the pins, and pulled the innards right out leaving the outer housing still on the mechanical switch half. Since the key was on at that instant, guess what, the car started on us.

3) Pulled the neg cable, then the coil wire to stop it. :)

4) Pulled the rest apart so the mechanical part was clear (without any of the electrical switch), and put the old original switch on the connector on the wiring harness. 1x philips screwdriver later, vroom, start / stop on demand.

5) Put the electrical part back on the mechanical switch half, and back to original problem. Remove the electrical half, works great 100% of the time.

6) We think the mechanical part of the switch isn't rotating enough physically to engage the starter. Rotating the switch 90 degrees will allow the movement to make the key work, but then you're obviously on "on" then.

So that's where I am, partway there.

Has anyone dealt with the mechanical side of the keylock / ignition like this? Is this something I'm missing? I really need to know if this is likely a mechanical keylock issue before dropping the coin on it. I didn't see anything indicating this, but might it be a bad connection from when the harness is bent out of shape when mounting the switch under the dash?

On the plus side, I now have a lighter weight starter... :D

Fred,
Thanks for the call today... so Mark came over w/ a charger and we hooked it up on 10a charge for 10/15 min. looks like it took somewhat of a charge, gave the key a twist and she started w/ a slight pause at the key.

I discounted the battery because it was new this March replacing a new battery from 2 years ago. Bought a trickle charger at Lowe's 22 bucks, she's plugged in, I'll know more in the morning.

I corrected the battery drain issue, with the drivers side dome light switch that was not working right and kept the power window relay energized. The passenger side switch didn't seem to have a problem back then, I'll check it out tomorrow.

See ya

Bob