Mismatched VIN#s

[ossiblue]

There have been several threads regarding altered VIN's recently, but this situation is different and I would like some input from the board.

I am interested in buying an early car and while looking at pictures sent by a seller, there is a discrepency in the VIN#s on the car. The aluminum plate (which is shown) and the stamped number in the trunk (which the seller checked) both match, but they indicate a 70T. The factory sticker on the door jamb (shown in another photo) indicates a later year car, which is what I want. The car itself seems clearly to be the later year from the photos. The car is registered as the later year, using the VIN from the door sticker.

I am guessing the front part of the car was replaced as the plate looks original and the trunk stamping matches, though the seller and his mechanic have seen no indications of repair. I have not asked about the window post tag.

I am in no way questioning the veracity of the seller and am purposely being obscure in my description, but I do have some questions:

1. Are there other places where the VIN is stamped beside the plate, trunk, dash, and window post tag?--If the entire front was replaced, all of these locations might show matching VIN's of the 70.

2. If the front with matching VIN's is a 70, and the back with only a sticker is later, how would you identify the car to the state, should that become necessary?

3. The car is currently registered as the later model. If the sticker somehow gets removed, how would it be possible to verify the car is the later model to a potential buyer in the future or for state registration?

4. How difficult would it be to have the car legally "re-VINed" as the later model?

5. Finally, assuming the repair was flawlessy done, how would you say it woud affect the value of the car, all things being equal?

By the way, I have e-mailed the seller and he has been very open with responses. I don't suspect any intentional misunderstandings but this seems to present a special problem. The car appears solid (haven't seen in person yet) and is desirable because it is a unique model, if properly VIN-ed. Any and all responses to these questions would be appreciated.

[70SATMan]

Originally Posted by ossiblue

I have not asked about the window post tag.

1. Are there other places where the VIN is stamped beside the plate, trunk, dash, and window post tag?--If the entire front was replaced, all of these locations might show matching VIN's of the 70.

2. If the front with matching VIN's is a 70, and the back with only a sticker is later, how would you identify the car to the state, should that become necessary?

3. The car is currently registered as the later model. If the sticker somehow gets removed, how would it be possible to verify the car is the later model to a potential buyer in the future or for state registration?

4. How difficult would it be to have the car legally "re-VINed" as the later model?

The dash stamping is not the VIN in 70 but, the production number. They can only be verified as matching by the factory and they will only tell you yes or no they match.

I believe there are only the four locations for the VIN on an original US imported 70. Plate, trunk stamp, A pillar, door jamb sticker.

I'd find out how far back the later model registration goes.

Is there any evidence of repaint around the door jamb sticker? Is it for sure an original silver toned sticker showing no signs of tampering?

There are major structural differences in the rear package shelf from the 70 and later models. How much later are we talking about on the sticker and registration? Are we talking 71, 72 or 73?

Has there been state to state transfers?

If the sticker is the only matching VIN and that gets damaged or removed you will be in a pickle proving a different VIN when all physical evidence proves the contrary.

[ossiblue]

Thanks for the reply, Michael. I had a feeling the VIN was only in those locations. The car appears (from the pictures and the seller's info.) to be a 72, but that is only confirmed by physical appearance of unique model year features, and the sticker. All other official ID shows a 70. My concern was what you mentioned--what would happen if the sticker is removed or obliterated?
I'm guessing the car has had a front end replacement from a donor car. There has been a repaint around the sticker but the sticker looks to be legit and unmolested. What we may have is a "half and half" car--typically not too large of a problem except in this case there are significant differences in the features between the model years. As of now, the state recognizes the car as one model year, but would that hold up under newer investigation? Is there some way to make a final establishment of the car as a 72 (more preferable year) as the one and only ID if there is no history of the repair or lengthy title record?--worst case scenario.
Again, how would this situation affect the value of the car?

[70SATMan]

Originally Posted by ossiblue

As of now, the state recognizes the car as one model year, but would that hold up under newer investigation? Is there some way to make a final establishment of the car as a 72 (more preferable year) as the one and only ID if there is no history of the repair or lengthy title record?--worst case scenario.
Again, how would this situation affect the value of the car?

Well, that is a tough one. You'd be in a better position if the A pillar tag and dash stamping pointed to the 72 VIN on the door jamb sticker. Then you might be able to make a case that the front clip was added and some DMV department somewhere didn't do a thorough job of verifying the VIN. If the car was damaged to the point that half of the car was replaced to include the dash with production number and the A pillar tag then if it were me I'd walk away from that car. Wouldn't be worth the headache. With a written confirmation of a match from the factory you would have a better chance to correct the registration error. It would still be a DMV crapshoot though.

Not to mention a serious hit on worth of an already base model of 911.

Not that there's anything wrong with Ts.....

[dad911]

I would run away from that car. W/O documentation for the various Vins & parts, you can not prove parts aren't stolen.

I rebuilt a car from 2 cars before. (Tub from 1, drivetrain & suspension from a donor) Had to document all of the parts, with receipts to get a legitimate 'Salvage' title.

[fryardds]

I didn't think the seller of this car was very forth coming with the same questions I have about this car. I noted the same descrepancies you did as well as the problem with the paint tag, which is for a Conda Green coupe. The four digit code and paint tag go with the earlier VIN tag not a '72 coupe, so it is more than just a front clip. I would be interested to see what the Production # for this car is. It will either be 120XXXX (a '70 Karmann coupe)or 102XXXX ('72 coupe).

I think the best advice is listed above. Don't buy this car, especially for $18.5K.

[ossiblue]

All sound advice, thanks to you all. Just too much of a headache to deal with. I hope the seller becomes more explicit with this potential problem to buyers who may not have the expertise to spot it on their own.

[Trust Me]

I am the owner of the car. Here is a copy of a recent response I had sent to an emailer after relisting it for sale.
"No offence taken. After having a very reputable PCA member take a look at the car we indeed found it to be a 70' front clip, the rest being 72'. The car has a DMV inspection plate under the hood. This is for safety and identification. I have now re listed the car at a lower price. Due to this. I am in no way trying to mislead anyone. I encourage anyone to come take a look. The title is clear. no salvage. I don't see anything difference from a regular 911 cut, chopped, and flared into a 911 rs.
Hope this helps."

[Zeke]

Well, the '72 ID plate SHOULD have been kept even if it was damaged. A professionally done job at a licensed repair facility would have seen to this. So, one conclusion is that this car is a private rebuild. If someone buys this car, please first put it on a frame rack to verify dimensions.

Change of color and a front clip make this a rather devalued car, IMHO. YMMV.

[Grady Clay]

Guys,

I think there is more to be learned about this car, most important by the seller.
What are the engine and transmission numbers? I assume the back half is a real ’72. That should be easy to determine.

Inspecting the front suspension (struts) might give some useful info.

Using all the numbers with PCNA and the FBI NCIC may yield some important info.

Using the numbers, state DMV can yield a lot of information.

Any Porsche 911 like this needs to be thoroughly investigated. Many have a reasonable explanation and provable provenance. Some are stolen or built from stolen parts. These need to be properly dealt with. I think gone are the days where the crooks buy a legal 912 and build a 911 with stolen 911SC parts.

It is up to all of us to prevent this.
Question everything.
Make the crooks run for cover.
Make it where they can’t sell a stolen 911 or parts.

Best,
Grady

[Trust Me]

??? The car is NOT stolen. I have a clean title. It has a DMV plate riveted to the steel next to the gas tank (by the factory stamped VIN). I am just an honest guy with a car for sale.

[Trust Me]

The last person I showed the car to was a gentlemen from WEVO. Him and his wife were very nice people. He is a Pelican member and a PCA member. I am sorry, but I have forgotten his name (he spoke with an accent). If you know who I am talking about, please ask him about the car.

[Grady Clay]

Troy,

If you read my post above I’m not saying this car is stolen.

What I am saying is that you have a 911 with questionable history and YOU should determine all the details about its history. You should not leave this to a potential buyer. This is your responsibility.

Lots of 911s have been clipped or are theft recovery and more. It is the sellers responsibility to document all the previous abuse and situations. Only with this kind of disclosure can a buyer fairly purchase a 911 knowing all the sometimes sordid details. When those details only come out during the transaction, that brings into question the seller’s integrity. If listed up front, the seller is straightforward.

I’m not saying that this is a stolen 911 or even built from stolen parts. You posted the discrepancy between numbers. It is your responsibility to resolve any discrepancy prior to a sale.

Sure, you run some risk finding out that it is stolen and the actual owner (not you) is some insurance company. That is where you must do “due diligence” when buying a 911.

I don’t want to queer you sale to anyone. I just want you to have full knowledge of what you are selling and pass that on to the buyer.

Best,
Grady

[wevoid]

I think I can add some value to this discussion, plus defend Troy against anyone eager to jump to conclusions.

Tracey, Ruby and I did go and look at this car advertised as a 1972 model. Some of you may know my affixation with '72's - two is not enough....must increase fleet.....must increase fleet.....

Soledad is about 2 hours from San Carlos, so we planned a Sunday morning trip down to look at this car. I arranged with Troy to call him when I was about 1 hour from him.

When I called Troy he asked if we could cancel the appointment as there was a problem. I assumed someone had bought the car and I had missed out. What Troy volunteered was that he had been communicating on-line and was now (just that weekend) confused that he had two conflicting year VIN numbers on his car - 1970 and 1972.

As we were half way there and my immediate suspicion was someone potentially confusing the circumstances about what might otherwise be a decent car - we said we would continue anyway and help Troy really establish what he had. He did not try to prevent me, he actually seemed relieved he would get some more informed opinion.

The car is definitely built from two 911's. The front is a green 1970, the rear is an orange 1972. The joint is quite nicely executed, being at/near the top of the "A" pillar and across the floor immediately behind the seat rails. There are some reinforcement plates adjacent to the jack points that give the joint away. The butt joint across the span of the floor is neat gas welded work and was obviously done by someone who was proud of their skills.

The car has a CAL DMV blue metal plate riveted next to the VIN# in front of the smugglers box, that plate has a serial number on it. I am certain the discrepency in VIN#'s between the Fedral Sticker in the drivers door and the front chassis plate is recorded somewhere as a bonafide combination of mixed chassis numbers.

I can not comment of the prior history of the car, as I was not interested in buying it and did no further research. The motor was not stock 1972 either, having mag stacks and few other parts. I think the mag stacks were "S", but do not recall.

I told Troy I had no way of arrivng at a value if I were to make him an offer. I think the idea of the car being made from two would put off a lot of people, but this work was nicely executed, better than mose race cars I have seen - many 70's race cars were joined after big accidents when parts were scarce etc - old timers here can elaborate.

I also warned him there would be critics, skeptics and those who would attempt to lowball and steal the car from him. I suggested if he enjoyed owning the car and driving it, then it might bring more driving pleasure than it could $. In some ways it is a great candidate to build a guilt-free hotrod, no special car at stake with this project!

I did not drive the car, but I had a good look at it and the gaps and general fit was as good as any high mileage car that had a few small incidents. The top of the RH door was a little tight, but I have assembled cars like that - with clear provenence..... The color was not to my taste and the metal flake had variance like gently swaying sea grass, but none of the flaws would have been a deal breaker at $18.5K if the car was a whole 1972T.

I am posting, not to enter a debate, just to contribute info based on the time I invested in visiting the car on November 11th.

Regards

Hayden

[Trust Me]

Hayden, Thank you so very much for the accurate description of the car. That was much better than I could have ever done. Your knowledge of the the 72' year model was very insightful. I will be using your description from now on (if you don't mind).

Thank you again,

Troy