Assistance needed: Vin Numbers on Stolen Cars.

[Macroni]

Okay, I am going to give this a shot.

Through Pelican I met a Norwegian Porsche enthusiast, He contacted me with a plead for assistance but it is over my head. I will give you a brief thumb-sketch and if there is anyone who can help I would like to put you together.

A Porsche club member in Norway purchased and exported a 1978 930 from a dealership in NY. The car was sold with a vin number that was correct for a 1978 930. The car was purchased without a proper inspection.

Upon receiving the car and inspecting it; it was found that the title showed a different VIN. This VIN did not correspond to the seller's information. The VIN on the car was removed by physically grinding away the number on the body and removing the tag on the left hand side A post.

The new owner would like to investigate the history of this car and need some information. They do not know how the system works in the US for changing VIN. The dealer in NY informed them the car was sold on a DVL auction in Las Vegas and was a stolen vehicle.

Questions from Norway:
How does the system for changing VINs work?
Is it possible that the current and previous VIN are matching?
Can they source the history of the car in anyway?

There is other very specific information , VINs and previous owner address that they do have but I didn't think it prudent to post.

Thanks.

[Porsche-O-Phile]

Aren't there "hidden VINs" on cars that only the dealers and L.E. know the locations of? Maybe that would help.

[tonythetarga]

In many cases the recovered vehicle is assigned a VIN by the state and registered with the new assigned number. Have a look in the trunk by the smugglers box; the factory stamped number there should match the original VIN and be something like: 93088(0 for coupe, 1 for Targa) then the xxxx 4 digit production sequence.
An assigned VIN will need verification through the issuing DMV. Perhaps a Carfax can shed some light on it.

[karlusmagnus]

Originally Posted by tonythetarga

Perhaps a Carfax can shed some light on it.

As far as I remember, no carfax for 70's cars. Limit is somewhere in the 80's.

Karl.

[baldman]

I would think they could contact the DMV for the area the car was sold and find out most of the information.

[3.2 CAB]

I believe it is 1981, when the "new" 17 digit VIN's were first used.

[Macroni]

Thanks, I am going to send the thread link to Europe.

[tonythetarga]

Was the car legally registered in NY? Was there a title that came with the car identifying the car?
He also needs to check with his governmental laws regarding registering a vehicle with this type of history. Could be a load of red tape, so better to start with what is needed in Norway.

[Grady Clay]

There are several VERY important things here.

If the car was purchased from a licensed NY Dealer, there is a bond to cover issues like this, even if the dealer is no longer in business. If a PCNA Dealer, I would expect them to ‘stand up’.

The legal aspects are to contact the buyer’s local authorities and have the complaint go up the chain to the USA FBI and possibly to the NY State Police. This is their mission.

On the money side, is it possible to ‘stop payment’ or recover from any ‘agents’ or intermediaries? Is the seller still in business? Find out everything you can.

Above all – write down everything, find all your correspondence, transfers, emails, phone records, etc.

Best,
Grady

[p930t]

Thanks Luke for posting.
I am not the owner, but know the deatails.

The dealership is in business.
The original VIN is grinded away,
The Title show a DMV VIN ( DMVXXXXXCA)
We need to get documentation that this is an original 930. I guess thet it is quite clear why.
The car was sold by NY dealer who bought it from a DMV auction (i beleive in CA or NV).
Previous owner and reg.no. is known (NV) but there might be reasons that this person do not want to answer requests from Europe.
If there are any online services that can be of help pls. post link.


Merry Christmas.

[Noah930]

Grady had a link/thread from about a year ago that talked about getting registration information from the California DMV. For $5, you can get a list of previous registrations of your car from California. You seem to think that the car was re-issued a VIN from the California DMV.

However, my attempt to do that DMV search with my car failed (and my car seems to have been originally purchased from a California dealer). The DMV replied that if there have been no active records on a vehicle for 5 years, the data gets expunged from the DMV database. My car had been in Nevada for several years, so apparently the California DMV tossed what info it had on it. I haven't tried contacting the Nevada DMV to see if they offer a similar service.

A sevice like CarFax only seems to work if you have a 17-digit VIN, which you do not. Even if you did, CarFax doesn't necessarily provide information all the way to the birth of your vehicle, if it's "old." A search on my '87 only listed records back to sometime in the mid-90s, IIRC. I guess the sources that CarFax must use (whether it's DMV or insurance industry databases?) must also not necessarily keep track of information after a certain amount of time.

[Grady Clay]

P930t,

That information makes the situation much easier.

This car seems to have an ‘assigned’ VIN by probably California. It should also have a ‘Title Bond’ for at least double its value. That is an insurance bond that forever guarantees the legitimacy of the title.

The owner should accumulate all the related documents – and a certified copy of the Bond.

From the assigned VIN, CA DMV can provide all the information. From that he can probably find the original Porsche VIN, the insurance company who covered the theft loss and probably the next prior owner.

It will take more work to trace the car back farther.

The first place to start is to ‘overnight’ a completed California ”INF 70” Form. You can send a check (in US$) or credit card information. It costs US$5 per record. It is $20 for certified copies, probably necessary for some in this situation. When sending this to CA DMV, you have to have everything filled out correctly. Remember, they are bureaucrats. Ask me how I know.

All this is a pia but necessary to preserve the value of the car. It is a shame the Dealer didn’t provide all this information – IMHO they should have.

Best,
Grady

[x98boardwell]

He is correct.

Go to www.dmv.ca.gov and search INF 70 and the form and instructions will come up. Print, fill out and send in and this should answer the majority of your questions. You may have to do the same thing for Nevada.

Good Luck,

Bryan

[Grady Clay]

P930t,

Additionally;

There some features of a 930 that are unique. Those are pretty well documented and should distinguish a real 930 Turbo from another car with a Turbo engine installed.

There are also some ‘hidden numbers’ available to the authorities. If his local authorities (who should do an additional VIN Inspection) don’t know, they can contact Porsche AG or the FBI.

A difficult thing about the internet (and even our relatively benign forums) is the crooks also frequent them.

Feel free to email me via my email address on my Pelican Profile.

Best,
Grady

[p930t]

What would life be without the pelican forum?
Thanks all for excellent and valuable answers.

[LM3929]

Just a thought, what about using an acid solution on the ground area to see if you can bring out the stamping?

[haycait911]

if you cut out the piece of metal that the number was stamped into you can see the number on the back side. that's why they stamp the number instead of engraving or something else.just grinding won't remove the number. the stamping distorts the metal on the backside. sometimes it's faint but you can usually figure it out. or, if you take out the gas tank you should be able to see the backside of the number plate.

[spuggy]

Originally Posted by LM3929

Just a thought, what about using an acid solution on the ground area to see if you can bring out the stamping?

Either that or X-raying is what LEO vehicle units do. Grinding won't remove the structure the metal took around the original stamps.