cheap 996 vs not cheap carrera

[aigel]

I should say we are familiar with the 88 and can work on it for that reason. In all this discussion one shouldn't overlook the 993 as something "in between". I.e. it has working a/c!

George

[450knotOffice]

The interior dash pod is similar in a very general look only. Sit in both of the cars and tell me that there is any real similarity in terms of the materials used and fit and finish. There is none. Not even close.

I am continually amazed when I read that "I've driven the 996 and it feels like a Lexus." No. It doesn't. Not even remotely similar. The 996 doesn't carry anywhere near the weight, nor the terminal understeer, nor the slow reflexes, nor the soft ride of any Lexus. Lexus owners would be up in arms if their ride was that stiff and sporting and their engine noise intruded into the cabin anywhere near as much as the 996's does. Take the car for a spirited drive on any mountain road and experience that supposed "Lexus" chassis and you will see that this car is no Lexus. In fact, compared to the un-modified late 80's Carreras I've driven (the few left - most, like my '84, have been modded), the ride is actually pretty similar. Compared to my modded car, no. My modded car is much more harsh and uncompliant. However, upgrade the suspension on the 996 and you've got the same very stiff ride.

Also, at least with the earlier cars (through '99), the driver aids (PSM and traction control) were non-existent. From 2000, they became optional. My 2000 is devoid of an driver aids whatsoever. It's me and the chassis and I like it that way. The suspension, btw, is a direct descendent of the 993's, with minor detail improvements (like, Porsche stiffened the ride a bit, believe it or not, compared to the stock 993).

I don't begrudge anyone for not liking the car. That's their prerogative. However, as a current owner of both types with tens of thousands of miles driven in both (road and track), I feel that I can offer up my perspective as to the true nature of both of these cars. These are great sports cars, guys. You may or may not like their styling and sound, but they are incredible driving machines nonetheless.

On a side note, I haven't lost the love for the air cooled 911's. In fact, I just got back from my second drive in the car today and this evening and just spent half an hour in the garage wiping down the whole car in preparation for our local Cars & Coffee tomorrow, adding a quart of oil, and adjusting the headlights slightly. I love that car and any excuse to work on it is a good one as far as I'm concerned.

[dd74]

Funny how the 996 guys say they haven't lost love for their old 911s. Is that a little like a remarried guy saying he still loves his first wife?

Anyway, sure, I like what I'm reading about the 996. Doesn't quite convince me the way dozens or hundreds of racing victories in various categories at the hands of air-cooled Porsches have, but I'm still paying attention.

[redstack]

Just so you guys know that after kicking this fire ant nest I am still following the thread. And enjoying the input from all sides.
For the record I didn't really care much for Porsches until I went to the track and saw them in action. Then a light came on in my head and I was converted on the spot. Especially the sound, my god the music of that flat six...
I will say that I like the looks of just about every Porsche made except for the 924 and kind of weak on the 928. But every other one including the 944 just seem so functional and pure of design that I love them all. I get too excited looking at the R Gruppe hot rods but I doubt I could ever devote enough time and resources ($) to make that dream come true..
Keep those cards and letters coming, R

[450knotOffice]

Re-married? He11, I've got two mistresses, the '84 and the '00 (or maybe three wives, if you count my human wife too )

[jwetering]

Originally Posted by redstack

Just so you guys know that after kicking this fire ant nest I am still following the thread. And enjoying the input from all sides.
....I get too excited looking at the R Gruppe hot rods but I doubt I could ever devote enough time and resources ($) to make that dream come true..
Keep those cards and letters coming, R

Well, actually - this car is in Oregon and it looks like an R-Gruppe candidate that's ready to go like right now...at $31K the price is high for an old car, but if it's sorted well enough, it's cheap:

http://vancouver.craigslist.ca/car/510642484.html



I have no affiliation....just a car I would consider buying if I ever did actually go back to air cooled. As we've learned here, it will be snap to work on, which of course is what you will be doing !!with any air cooled 911!!. Seriously though - this looks like a nice car.

[89911]

Originally Posted by 450knotOffice

The interior dash pod is similar in a very general look only. Sit in both of the cars and tell me that there is any real similarity in terms of the materials used and fit and finish. There is none. Not even close.

I am continually amazed when I read that "I've driven the 996 and it feels like a Lexus." No. It doesn't. Not even remotely similar. The 996 doesn't carry anywhere near the weight, nor the terminal understeer, nor the slow reflexes, nor the soft ride of any Lexus. Lexus owners would be up in arms if their ride was that stiff and sporting and their engine noise intruded into the cabin anywhere near as much as the 996's does. Take the car for a spirited drive on any mountain road and experience that supposed "Lexus" chassis and you will see that this car is no Lexus. In fact, compared to the un-modified late 80's Carreras I've driven (the few left - most, like my '84, have been modded), the ride is actually pretty similar. Compared to my modded car, no. My modded car is much more harsh and uncompliant. However, upgrade the suspension on the 996 and you've got the same very stiff ride.

Also, at least with the earlier cars (through '99), the driver aids (PSM and traction control) were non-existent. From 2000, they became optional. My 2000 is devoid of an driver aids whatsoever. It's me and the chassis and I like it that way. The suspension, btw, is a direct descendent of the 993's, with minor detail improvements (like, Porsche stiffened the ride a bit, believe it or not, compared to the stock 993).

I don't begrudge anyone for not liking the car. That's their prerogative. However, as a current owner of both types with tens of thousands of miles driven in both (road and track), I feel that I can offer up my perspective as to the true nature of both of these cars. These are great sports cars, guys. You may or may not like their styling and sound, but they are incredible driving machines nonetheless.

On a side note, I haven't lost the love for the air cooled 911's. In fact, I just got back from my second drive in the car today and this evening and just spent half an hour in the garage wiping down the whole car in preparation for our local Cars & Coffee tomorrow, adding a quart of oil, and adjusting the headlights slightly. I love that car and any excuse to work on it is a good one as far as I'm concerned.

Your arguement is not without merit, especially since you really are qualified to critique. I guess, if you can look past the cars appearance, you can grab one for a minimal price. The only problem is those are the ones that have had some issues (read any Excellence when they are evaluating the 996 models. B Anderson goes into a few paragraphs of issues with the early 996 cars where, if you read through the lines, he is saying "stay away"!) So you can easily pick up one and then either be out for possible failures or suffer a big loss if you try to unload it when or if these come up. True, this could be said for almost any 911. I've dropped my own engine, had it rebuilt and reinstalled it myself. There seems to be a small, grassroots type of garages that cater to these air cooled cars. They are usually small, one man places, run by enthusiast. Once you get into the 996, I wouldn't even attempt to do any major work, nor would most of the garages I know. Any major service is now at the $$$dealer$$$ or the high end $$$luxery$$$ garage in you city that usually does Ferrari tune ups. Either way, the money you saved in buying this depreciating car has just been used up. It needs to be a rock solid car in my book to invest in it for any long term use.

450knot. We will be contacting you in next months chapter Carrera vs Cayman!

[jwetering]

Originally Posted by 89911

.......There seems to be a small, grassroots type of garages that cater to these air cooled cars. They are usually small, one man places, run by enthusiast. Once you get into the 996, I wouldn't even attempt to do any major work, nor would most of the garages I know. Any major service is now at the $$$dealer$$$ or the high end $$$luxery$$$ garage in you city that usually does Ferrari tune ups.

Uuggh - what a total and utter ignorant load of BS.

My former 911 mechanic - a small indy enthusiast shop does a roaring business in Boxster, 996, and GT3 maintenance. Yes he also has replaced a number of 996 engines, he also built my 3.0 litre 911 engine (cams, pistons, webers).

This was and is my biggest problem with this thread - this misconception that the 996 is a complicated car to maintain. It's a bloody car! Nuts and bolts hold it together, it get's jacked up, the part that has been diagnosed as faulty is removed, a new part is installed.

What am I missing?

I suppose your shop guy (or you) will need to have access to an OBD system, but seriously, if you or your shop are not up to date with OBD, then I can't help you.

I suppose you heat your house with a woodstove too.

[Jandrews]

I'm in the camp that thinks 996's are excellent cars. They are faster and handle better than ALL (including 993) previous stock 911 examples. They have reached bargain basement prices, primarily because there were so many produced. Further exacerbating the flooded market is the fact that many (most) of the 996 cars were purchased new from non-enthusiasts who consider them disposable when they move on to their next vehicle.

Like jwetering, what I find interesting about this thread is all the misconceptions. It is entertaining to hear all the Carrera and SC owners dismiss the 996 as an overweight, heavy, non-responsive, boring lump. With all due respect, and I will get flamed here, I have a '70E with 2.7RS with MFI and I find the SC's and Carreras to be all those things. My point here is not to disrespect the post '73 911's, rather to emphasize that this discussion is a matter of perspective. Grouping all the "air-cooleds" as the holy grail of 911's is hardly fair and appropriate. Just how many "racing victories" have the stock '74-'89 911's won (or even participated in for that matter). The vast majority of racing victories were achieved by homologated versions of the early cars in RS, RSR, IROC formats, not the thermal reactor "middies". Again, I am a fanatical fan of the air-cooleds....just trying to highlight the importance of perspective.

I am currently in the market for a 996, but if finances allow, I will probably go with an '01 or '02 Turbo. I was completely committed to a N/A version of the 996, until my good buddy just bought a 40th anniversary '04 with 340 horsepower and I just can't let him have the upper hand.

Lastly, while a good spirited debate is worthwhile, entertaining, and even valuable, I do find it a bit disturbing that many enthusiasts are so narrow-minded as to only see "their" model year as the "best". For me, I respect all Porsches. I have my favorites, and there are some that I don't particulary care for one aspect or another, (probably wouldn't own a 924 for example), but that doesn't mean that I don't respect it for what it is.

Best Regards,

JA

[89911]

Where's the BS??. There ARE shops in my area that cater to earlier model, air cooled 911's. Sure, they WILL work on them, but they have to buy the OBD updates and keep current with them for the one or two 996 that fall there way a month. They end up telling them to go to the dealer and keep busy with the older models. What happens in your area isn't true, at least in mine.

[the]

Originally Posted by Jandrews

I'm in the camp that thinks 996's are excellent cars. They have reached bargain basement prices, primarily because there were so many produced.

The real reason they have reached bargain basement prices is that most people don't like them.

The reason most people don't like them is because most people don't find them particularly attractive, or compelling looking. It's hard to imagine anyone getting feelings of lust after looking at a regular 996.

So the market speaks.

Like those who love 924s, 944s, mid-year 911s, etc., you 996 lovers are in luck, you can buy the object of your desire for dirt cheap because the market says they are not particularly desirable cars. Thus the bottom feeder prices.

[Jandrews]

Originally Posted by the

The real reason they have reached bargain basement prices is that most people don't like them.

Is it really fair to say "most" people don't like them when so many were sold new? It would possibly be appropriate to say that "many" fans of the air-cooled Porsches don't like them.

Regarding maintenance and repair, I may be a bit biased. I live within 10 miles of one of the highest regarded "new" Porsche specialists (particularly the Turbos) in the world - Imagine Auto.


JA

[Chuck Grieb]

Originally Posted by dd74

Anyway, sure, I like what I'm reading about the 996. Doesn't quite convince me the way dozens or hundreds of racing victories in various categories at the hands of air-cooled Porsches have, but I'm still paying attention.

From what I understand, the 996 GT3 has been the single most successful race car Porsche has produced - winning more races than any other single Porsche model prior.

[MOMO3.2]

I think that people have missed the point entirely when they argue against the performance capabilities of the 996. The 996 and 997 are both the recipients of decades of advances in the areas of design and engineering. They area also the victims of being built to a price and a general industry trend that has all but done away with skilled craftspeople and the ideal of producing a car that will last a lifetime.

Air-cooled 911's ARE special, because they are the last of a breed to be assembled, crafted, and finished by skilled engineers and craftsmen. The air-cooled 911 endured for over 30 years by virtue of the fact that it was built to a standard and not a price. It was built to last a lifetime. The air-cooled 911 has been recognized by several industry experts and automotive journalists as the greatest sports car of all time. The air-cooled 911 was voted among the greatest cars of the millennium. This is by virtue of the exciting driving experience, sublime performance, beautiful styling, and unparalleled reliability of the 911.

As amazing and wonderful as they are, neither the 996 or 997 will ever receive this type of recognition. One has to step up to the GT3, GT2, or Turbo models to realize the level of superior performance exclusivity, or relative technology that was incorporated into the air-cooled 911's. Ironically, all 3 of these models still use a motor based on an air-cooled block...hmmm.

That is what makes EVERY air-cooled 911 special. And, that is what makes owning, driving, and maintaining an air-cooled 911 so rewarding. It is the car that made Porsche an icon and distinguished itself as one of the greatest of all time.

996's are good. But, not that good.

Mike

[aigel]

Originally Posted by Chuck Grieb

From what I understand, the 996 GT3 has been the single most successful race car Porsche has produced - winning more races than any other single Porsche model prior.

The engine in the GT3 is significantly different from the basic 996. It has a true dry sump system, much like the air cooled cars.

I have said this before, but the 996 will be in 928 territory 10 years from now. It will free fall once the 997 is an older used car. It has pressure from both sides, the 997 and the 993. I would consider buying a 996 for the street some time down the line when it gets cheap enough.

George

[the]

That's true. I've read that a 993 took something like 140 hours to build, and a 996 took 30 hours. And that a 996 was something like half the cost to build. Something like that, I'm sure someone can find the exact numbers.

Is that bad? IMO, not really. It's just reality. Earlier porsches were built to last a lifetime. People paid a premium for them because of their superior build quality and materials.

But times have changed, and now even cars like production porsches are just appliances, built to last the life of the lease term. They are produced using Japanese style mass production techniques, using parts that are not of any higher quality than most other above average cars. People still pay a premium for them as new cars, but that premium is largely based not on superior build quality or materials, but on the prestige of the badge on the hood.

So I agree, I don't think the 996 is a bad car. Just like a Nissan 350Z isn't a bad car (heck, most modern sports and even "sporty" cars are great cars, fast, nice handling, nice ride, nice brakes, etc. etc. etc.). But it is still just a modern, mass produced "nice car." There is no "magic" there.

I don't think anyone would seriously argue that the 993 was the last of a very special breed.

[redstack]

I have been cruising the bbs and am learning that it isn't the most difficult thing to drop an engine and is the norm for simple jobs. Coming from 4 and 6 cyl nipponese sports cars this seems extreme, but very practical in a lot of ways. While its out you can do alot of cleaning and small jobs while messing around with oil tubes and such. It seems like 6 hours to do it the first time.

I've seen the pics of guys in the eng bay of their 911's what about the 996. E throttle would seem even easier. Unplug a few wire connectors and jack it up.

Jasper makes a claim of as easy or easier to maintain.

Boy craigslist, what an evil thing that is. And to really get addicted try one of the craigs list search engines, you can drool over Porsches in whole regions of the country in short order.

[jwetering]

Originally Posted by redstack

....I've seen the pics of guys in the eng bay of their 911's what about the 996. E throttle would seem even easier. Unplug a few wire connectors and jack it up.

Jasper makes a claim of as easy or easier to maintain.

Hi Redstack - I will suggest that the reason you have seen more pictures of 911 engine drops is that way more 911 engines are actually dropped in any given amount of time. Way more.

Of course there have been 996 engine failures, but they are not as common as people make out....furthermore, the VAST majority were fixed while the cars were under warranty and the reman crate motors have been extremely reliable.

There's simply no reason for me to drop my 996 motor for example, but if the need did arise, then I'd be more inclined to do it in my carport (and take a photo for you) than I would with my old 911. Like you say - advancement in wiring loom technology alone suggest it would be easier than in the past.

While on the subject - how many 996 that are being advertised on Craiglist have new or rebuilt engines?

None?
One?

While on the subject also - how do you search *all* of craigslist? I'm looking for a new watch.

[ZAMIRZ]

Originally Posted by the

The real reason they have reached bargain basement prices is that most people don't like them.

Apparently you failed high-school economics.

Price is merely a function of supply/demand.

[450knotOffice]

Good discussion. I'm enjoying it.