I did register. Really not sure I'm ready for the DE. I am going to Roebling Road next Friday. It's such a slippery slope you know.
Let me Know if you need any help with anything.

How do you subscribe to this thread? Thanks,

Don Ivey
'87 Carrera

Don "click" Thread Tools at the top right of this page. When the drop down menu drops click on subscribe.

S.

subscribed

"I took the day off from work to pick up the heads. Luckily all valves were good. But I did need twelve new guides. It still added up pretty fats."

Rob - I am anticipating this same project next winter. I know that you posted some costs early on, but based on the scope of your project what would you estimate someone should budget for machine shop work for a similar project? I'm kind of asking what you paid Protech without asking what you paid Protech. Thanks.

If your valves and springs are still good, and you only need valve guides, I think $700.- to $1000.- to do the heads.
It would include checking the springs, measuring the valve stems, installing new guides, 3-angle grind and shaving off ~0.002 equally from the heads.
Most important is to find a shop with experience and a good reputation.
Depending on Mileage and condition, other machining could show up when disassembling.
Hope you'll find Mahle P/C's.

Over the years I've learned to take the estimate given when you drop the parts off, and double it. That way you won't be shocked at the cost when you pick the parts up.. ;)

The work on my heads came in a few dollars over $1,000. That covered, 12 guides, 12 additional shims, new seals, valve job, cleaning, plus surfacing the flywheel. (Labor rate was $88/hr.)

So the total cost for replacing the guides, the divlar studs, new tensioner oil lines, all accessible seals/gaskets, and other general minutia (Minutia may be a misnomer. Those "small" items add up fast when they’re Porsche parts):

$2,500.

Rob,

I am also starting a rebuild soon. In fact, I am waiting on you to finish so that I can use Kevin's stand! :)

My "spare" engine is being delivered tomorrow. Can't wait to dig in.

A few posts back you included your expenses to date. It would be great if you could keep posting that info every week or so with the breakdown - it certainly helps others get a better idea of costs involved. Is $2500 your total so far?

Also, were you satisfied with Protech? I will likely send my heads to them as well since they are geographically closest to me - should save a little on shipping.

Many thanks and thanks for starting this thread.

Craig

Sure Craig,


But the list is getting pretty long. Especially when you factor in the clutch project. :rolleyes:

Craps ... that reminds me. I need to add a new clutch to my Projects List.

Sure does add up fast!

You have enough on your plate with your rebuild - don't worry about compiling a list of expenses. Maybe after you finish and have some free time.

Here ya' go. Adjusted for all the seals I bought that were already in the top-end gasket kit.

Qty Price Cost Part
4 $1.50 $6.00 911 CV Joint Bolt
1 $81.75 $81.75 Reverse Light Switch
1 $72.00 $72.00 Cam Bar tool
1 $25.20 $25.20 Heat Exchanger Nut Removal Tool
1 $54.25 $54.25 Thermo valve
1 $163.19 $163.19 Fuel line
4 $4.00 $16.00 Ball Socket Retaining Clip
1 $1.20 $1.20 Cable Holder
2 $97.00 $194.00 Position Sensor, Motronic Ignition
1 $73.75 $73.75 Temperature Sensor
2 $7.50 $15.00 Chain Ramp
24 $4.50 $108.00 Rocker shaft RSR seals
1 $27.00 $27.00 Cam oil line RH
1 $46.00 $46.00 Cam oil line LH
1 $19.75 $19.75 Pulley Seal
1 $218.00 $218.00 Cylinder gasket kit
12 $13.50 $162.00 Head studs
4 $12.75 $51.00 Oil return tubes
6 $0.50 $3.00 Copper exhaust nuts
6 $3.00 $18.00 Exhaust barrel nuts
1 $9.00 $9.00 Assembly Lube
1 $4.25 $4.25 Converter to muffler seal
1 $9.00 $9.00 Mahle oil filter
1 $30.00 $30.00 Case sealers, thread lockers
12 $3.00 $36.00 Brake cleaner
1 $7.00 $7.00 Mineral Spirits
1 $51.00 $51.00 Resurface G50 flywheel
6 $160.00 $960.00 Machine work (12 guides, 12 shims)

TOTAL $2,461.34

Clutch project:

Qty Price Cost Part
1 $186.25 $186.25 Improved shaft & Bushings
9 $1.50 $13.50 Pressure plate bolts
1 $28.00 $28.00 Throttle shaft arm
1 $50.00 $50.00 Clutch slave line
1 $6.50 $6.50 Engine Oil Switch
9 $2.00 $18.00 Flywheel bolts
1 $304.25 $304.25 Clutch disk
1 $8.00 $8.00 Pilot bushing
1 $409.00 $409.00 Pressure Plate
1 $113.00 $113.00 Throw out bearing
1 $202.00 $202.00 Improved release fork
1 $89.00 $89.00 Slave cylinder
1 $71.00 $71.00 Throwout guide tube
1 $12.50 $12.50 Mainshaft seal
1 $13.00 $13.00 Shift seal
1 $14.50 $14.50 Flywheel seal
1 $1.75 $1.75 Engine int. shaft seal
1 $8.85 $8.85 Clutch align. tool

TOTAL $1,549.10

Great! Thanks for taking the time to put that together.

Good list. :)

6 $160.00 $960.00 Machine work (12 guides, 12 shims)

What shims are those?

Spring shims. Think about it. Cut the valve face. Then cut the valve seat. Now the valve stem sticks up through the valve spring a touch more than before.

I know what you mean! I am finding this as well with a '78 3.0L engine I'm working on, not to mention lots of RTV. WWT? Must be a "quick and temporary" fix is my guess.
Whatever works at the time I suppose.

I am thinking............:)

If it isn't excessive, the extra amount sticking out is absorbed by the adjusting screw. :confused:

To be clear: 12 new thicker OEM shims?
Do these shims come with various thickness?

Or adding shims to the existing ones?

Please, clarify. SmileWavy

I think it might be more along the lines of F = k * x. With the valve higher the spring isn't compressed as much.

That's how I see it and when my heads were done by a very experienced shop the springs were checked for tension etc. but the same OEM shims were re-used.
I discussed the issue of how the stems stick out a little more after grinding the seats and was told that the adjuster screw will absorb it.
That made sense to me but there may be something new to learn.

12 new OEM shims? Why?
Or what exactly, please. SmileWavy

The adjusting screw will absorb the decreased clearance as the valve stem moves out.

If the spring is less compressed as the stem moves out, then there will be less preload on the spring and less force required to open the valve?

ianc

True.
Advantage would be less load/wear on the lobes of the cams but,
If the preload is significantly less, this might result in "valve-float" at higher RPM range.

Still looking for clarification on the 12 shims mentioned in the rebuild cost?
New OEM shims? Why?
Different OEM shim thickness? :confused:

Less preload causes valves to bounce off their seats. Not a good thing.

Yes, but the question is:
What is different about the 12 shims you mentioned?
Are they just new OEM shims with the same thickness as the old ones?

What is the difference between the OLD shims and the NEW shims?

Springs have an "installed height". The free length of the spring is greater than the length when installed. It's a simple a way of setting the spring preload.

The shims come in varying thicknesses. So you may need to add a shim, or swap some shims. What you end up with depends on how much was cut fro the valve face, how much was cut from the valve seat, and what shims you had to start with.

A good shop will mix-and-match, and only charge you for one shim per valve. Another shop may charge you for two shims they added, and never mention the shim they removed, and used on someone else's head.

Yesterday I got the other bank of heads installed. Today was dedicated to setting the cam timing.

"Easy as pie", my friend Kevin told me. Well, maybe it's easy on a '79 SC. But it's a PITA on a Carrera. You see, there no freakin' way to hold the cams still on a Carrera! You set things up, rotate the crank, loosen the cam bolt and the cam moves. And since the valve spring is pushing on it, the cam moves a lot. I tried all sorts of techniques. finally, I digressed to the following: Get the initial staring point established, guess where the cam needed to be. Rotate the crank 360°. Note where the dial indicator reading is. Set everything back to the initial starting point. Guess at how much the cam needed to move. Rotate the crank 360°. Read the dial indicator again. Repeat ad nauseum....

Eventually, I got both cams registering at .048". Well within the timing window of .043->.055, but not the perfect reading of .049 either. Finally, I decided to call it quits. I'll recheck things tomorrow. If everything looks good, it’s on to the next step. And if I have to time the cams again? I'm going to scream....

Here's what the engine looks like now.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206226988.jpg

I don't know ANYTHING about cam timing, but there must be a better way. I can't imagine some factory engine builder doing it that way. There must be a way to make it right every time. I have enjoyed your post. Hopefully it will be many years before I have to rebuild my engine.

For the timing, only #1 and #4 intake valves are set at 0.004", the rest is left completely lose to make turning easier, I think.

If I remember correctly, the cams on an SC are the same as a Carrera; they are interchangeable.

With the right tools, it went very smooth; no frustration. :)

Why would the Porsche tool P9191 (in the picture) not work on a 3.2 liter? :confused:


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206291564.jpg

Well, my vast experience of one build completed last December will allow me to weigh in with the good Captain on his cam timing technique. I did the same thing. It was frustrating at first, fighting the cam movement. You do get pretty adept at the guessing, putting some "preload" on them to compensate for their movement, but it still takes a few goes to get them right.

After the fact, I've heard a couple of different variations that may make it easier:
1. Install all of the rockers, which would then collectively "grab" the cams, keeping them stationary. Sounds reasonable, I guess.

2. Use a longer bolt on the front of the cams that will bottom out in the hole. This would then allow you to hold the cams with a wrench, but you'd have to be pretty steady as we're tallking accuracy here on the dial gauge.

But, there is nothing wrong with what Capt. Carrera or I did, IMHumbleO.

The pictured tool will work on 3.2's, but will not work on earlier SC's. Midway through the SC run, they changed from a cam nut to a cam bolt. Not sure exactly when, but my 80 had a nut, for which you need a special crowfoot socket and cam holding tool.

ianc

Played with the cams some more today. I got them dead on. I finished up the day by installing the timing covers and oil lines.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206307537.jpg

Rob,

Looking good! Really coming together.

Question: Did you do anything to refresh your wiring harness?

When I was manipulating some wires for labeling purposes the outter casing cracked in several locations. Not the casing of the wires themselves, but the casing that contians several bundled wires. Just wondering if you had any similar issues.

I did nothing to the wiring. It looks great. That is, unless you count the wires on the reference sensors. Those disintegrated upon touch. Oh, and I have to re-solder the connectors that plug into the backup switch.

Hi Robert, Glad to see your timing is now set. I do remember setting mine several times and resetting and swearing it had to be wrong etc etc. When i was done I decided it was right the first time. Actually the difference in the SC and Carrera may make a difference.
I noticed in the one picture that you had the manual tensioner laying up on the heads. Was this just laying there or did you use it for something else?

The manual tensioner is sitting up there post-usage. Let me add, I'm not convinced it provided any benefit over the hydraulic tensioners providing static tension against the chains.

The issue with Carrera cams is more than twofold.

• The cams move when you pull the gear pin.
• When you move the crank, the unpinned cams move as well. And not necessarily a correlating amount.
• There is no way to hold the cam in place once they’re unpinned.
• There is no way to rotate the cams counter clockwise using the bolt. The bolt simply unscrews.
• Rotating the cam clockwise results in problems getting the bolt to disengage.

Trying not to get pissed-off appears to be the key….

Yes, I know, the '81-'83 SC has the center bolt and these cams are the same as Carrera cams; they are interchangeable.
If I remember correctly, on pin hole makes a difference of about 0.1 mm on the overlap.
I only set #1 and #4 valve clearance, the rest is lose.
After the initial installation of the 930-number on the cam pointing up, I rotated to see how close I was with the timing.

I calculated how much I was off, then rotated the engine a little to get the spring tension off the lobe and then opened the center bolt so I could get move the set-up to the right hole in the right direction.

Then re-check a few times and do the necessary correction repeating the above steps.
Found it very interesting and not frustrating as long as you take your time and think it out. :)

Subscribed!

The project is at that point where progress is really visible. Got the valves adjusted, and the covers installed. Also got the heat exchangers on, and the intake in place. I do hope I got the oil line from the case tightened enough so it doesn't leak. I tightened it as much as I dare. If it does leak, I’ll have to drop the exhaust again.

Also, I broke a socket and bent a bunch of bolts trying to get the crank pulley off. (I'm using the bolts and a wrench as a flywheel stop.) A new 17mm 1/2" drive socket and some grade 10.9 bolts did the trick. Now I have replaced ever seal and gasket that you can get to without splitting the case.

Tomorrow I plan on getting the intake torqued down, the fan installed, and getting the transmission cleaned up some.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206827594.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1206827691.jpg

Very nice Robert. I am sure you are beginning to get excited about putting it back in. I can hear the track screaming your name...

Funny thing… The Bride® has spent more time at the track this year than I have. I think it's startin' to scream her name.... ;)

Back to the engine. I had an epiphany this evening. I need to get the engine off the stand, and then install the intake. Otherwise, the chain will interfere with too many things. Good thing I didn’t torque everything down. The rental shop is closed on Sunday, so tomorrow is limited to cleaning the trans and more engine tin.... :(

Ask a couple of teens in the neigborhood to give you a helping hand. That's how I usually get my 3.6 on and off the stand. With three people it is kinda tough. Four and it is pretty easy. Leave the engine mount on and slide it out of the stand. Cheers,

Ingo