Lifting 964 for engine drop - need advice

First time removing engine from a 911, and am nervous about the options I have.

1. Option 1. R/R in my "garage," but lower car and store in driveway. I have a very small garage (it's actually a big "shed" with a concrete floor!), so I can't leave the car up on jack stands there throughout the engine overhaul. Is it going to be a pain to lower the car with the engine out? Will it's balance be way off?

2. Option 2. Jack it up and do R/R in the driveway, and leave it there throughout. I'm not crazy about leaving the car "scary high" for several weeks out in the open. Could a strong wind blow it off?

3. Option 3. Do R/R in driveway, but lower it afterwards.

4. Option 4. Find nice neighbor with 4 bay garage fitted with all Porsche special tools, and car lift.

As always, any thought or advice is appreciated. It's going to happen in the next couple days, so time is of the essence. Thanks.

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Steve
'89 C4

[This message has been edited by sms1305 (edited 04-04-2001).]

The first thing to keep in mind is that the engine will be out longer than you think. Even with the best of plans, you may have additional time waiting on machine work or parts. I am just now receiving parts that were promised 2 weeks ago.
Now, I would NOT leave the car up in the air at the height required for engine removal. I would back it in the garage, remove the engine, lower the car and roll it straight out the door to free up space. Once you do have the engine ready, just roll the car back into the garage and raise it up. It really is much easier to drop the engine than you think. The worst part for most people is the height required to roll the engine out. I usually remove air boxes and rear valences to keep the height required to a minimum. Have a GOOD floor jack and some tall, heavy duty stands along with an assortment of wood blocks. Good luck and be double safe when under the raised car!
Tom

[This message has been edited by towen (edited 04-04-2001).]

the most necessary tool you need is a transmission type jack with a large pad so the engine/trans will balance on it as you lower them. nothing like trying to balance that awkward load on a 4'' square pad. other than that it's just nuts and bolts and common sense. don't disconnect the hydraulic lines to the servos. pull the servos out and hang them out of the way. don't lower the unit until the trans is totally seperated from the front drive shaft.

Basicall agree with above, when I did my 88 I was a bit waery about getting the car up high, so I stipped as much off with the engine in the car (exhaust, inlet etc) to leave the longblock in the car. This was them much easier to manhandle out of the car.

You can see details at:

http://users.ev1.net/~davmanku/porsche/carrera.html

P.S. why are you pulling the motor?

OPTION 4!!!!!

Hopefully SHE is also a factory trained technician.

Lol, GT.

Beetos:

Nice Webpage lots of good Info

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• Joe A.
• 84 911 Targa
• 75 914/6 3.0

beetos: Great website. Thanks for the info. My troubles are chronicled at: http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/Forum3/HTML/006309.html

It should go up in the air in the next day or so.

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Steve
'89 Carrera 4
'62 190 SL

bad news Steve, best of luck with your rebuild. I just traded my white 88 that you see on my website for a 90C2 and did a lot of research before deciding on a C2. Believe it or not, I found out that only a few cars had the cylinder head problem. My car had a cylinder base oil leak that the dealer paid most of the money to fix. The rest of the car is a gem with almost FSH, original window stiker etc. etc. While they had the motor out and stripped, I had them put new guides in it and recondition the bottom end at my cost. My car still has the 'old' style heads / cylinders with the step in them and did not show any probelms after 107,000 miles. I now have a fully rebuilt motor....sweet as a nut. According to the place doing my rebuild, they have only seen 2 or 3 964's with head leakage in many years of servicing and working on the early cars. They even went so far as saying that it was almost a witch hunt situation with people avaoiding the early 964's driving their prices down. Good news for people like me who want them! BTW, I agree with folks on the other post that it is very rare for a C2/C4 to pull o break a stud, bad luck I guess. Anyway I love the C2's, and am extremely happy with mine, It's hard to believe that my old 88 and my C2 were only 2 years apart. good luck with you rebuild.

sms1305:

Are you doing a full overhaul assuming the car is a "leaker", or are you just going to go after the bad stud?

Bill Wagner

Assuming I can actually get the thing in the air, I'm going to do a complete top end overhaul on both sides, including replacement of all head studs with ARP, and re-profile the cams for a few more hp. My hope is that the cylinders & pistons are still good, and that I can just put in a new set of rings, resurface the heads & cylinder tops, and do a valve job. I really don't have any reason to suspect the bottom end, but I'm also planning to change out the rod bolts to ARP.

For those of you out there that have done this, I'm feeling a little like Mike Muligan's steam shovel (showing my age, I guess) in that once the car is up on stands and the engine is out, WHERE ARE THE CORRECT LIFTING AND SUPPORT POINTS to get it down? Some have a suggested a piece of 4x4 across the car to lift it off. Will I crush the bottom? What about the front of the car? How do I get that part down? I need a reality check here. Do I just need to find a garage that I can leave it up in while I do the engine work in my shop? This is really freaking me out.

Beetos,
Great images of your motor rebuild!


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Doug
'81 SC Coupe (aka: "Blue Bomber")
Canada West Region PCA
members.home.net/zielke/911SC.htm

sms1305:

The "fix" for leakers is to replace the cylinders with ones with gaskets as well as the pistons and I think the rings. Have you found out that there's a lot more wrong with your car that you now want to re-machine the heads and do a valve job as well? Your car has low mileage. I know that some mechanics are remachining the heads to "fix" the oil leak problem, but is your car REALLY a confirmed leaker or not? I don't know how well the re-machining idea really works. Do you have any long term confirmations that this procedure is successful?

Unless your car is a REAL leaker (like oil pouring out of the thing when running) I tend to think your approach may be too aggressive. I don't know what you've been told by mechanics, but I'd be interested in hearing it.

FWIW, if it were my car I would just try and fix the busted stud before proceeding with the major work your contemplating. I would DEFININATELY go with the new studs on all cylinders, but regrinding the cylinders and heads sounds excessive, especially if nothing is really verified as being wrong. Unfortunately, this approach is sort of a gamble since if the car is a true leaker you may end up doing all (or at least most) of the work you're contemplating.

Since you're moving to a new area, maybe you can (or already have) get some opinions from some "new" local mechanics. I think my fear (for you) is that you'll either do a ton of work on the car and not have the problems properly resolved or you'll be doing unnessecary work.

I know you're going to hate me for saying this, but assuming you're car IS leaking, have you REALLY isolated it to the cylinders? This problem does seem to be somewhat rare (at least the cases where the leaks are severe). It does happen, but from what I've heard it apparently isn't that common.

Bill: I have not confirmed that it is a "true" leaker. In fact, my suspicion is that it is not. However, due to the broken stud, I AM "leaking" between the cylinder top & head at high torque, when the pressure in the cylinder is greatest. Of course, I will evaluate the repair alternatives once the engine is out-if ever. Believe me, if the car could be successfully repaired for the price of one stud, I would do it. However, because I want to have high confidence in my engine, and in the interest of not having to do the work again, I will certainly have the valves done while the heads are out being inspected by a professional - it's cheap insurance. Because of the broken stud, I strongly suspect that the cylinder-head pair will need to be resurfaced. If so, then all of the ones on that bank will need to be resurfaced just so they will fit back together. The other side of the engine will be an option play. If all looks really good, I might just replace one stud at a time, leaving everything else intact. If everything does come apart, well, the cam reprofiling is just for fun! In the end, I'll have a tight engine, with race quality fasteners. Hey, don't hesitate to be critical of my thinking. I'm not a certified Porsche technician, and I don't even play one on TV. I very much appreciate your and everyone else's thoughts.

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Steve
'89 Carrera 4
'62 190 SL

sms1305:

I'm not being critical of what you're doing by any means. I'm just questioning it.

FWIW, the guy who told me about the resurfacing the heads to stop the oil from leaking on the "leaker" type 964s was a man named Charley Murphy at a local shop called Intersport, here in VA. Their phone number is (703)242-8680. He was the first person to tell me about this procedure as a way to avoid the cost of a semi-overhaul. I know nothing about this procedure or how time proven it is, but you may want to give him a call...I know you won't be one of his customers (since you live so far away), but he seemed to know what was going on and my guess is that he will tell you what exactly needs to be done. Keep in mind the following if you try and contact them:

1. They're busy. You may have to set up some type of appointment to talk to him, and God only knows what type of emergency or rush job they'll be confronted with unexpectedly.

2. Tell them that I referred you to them. Since I didn't have manuals and my car had NO service done on it other than oil changes (it needed everything) I let them do just about everything. They have enough cars in that I'm sure they won't recognize my name, but I think they'll recognize my white '91 C4 w/18K on it at the time if you mention it....then they can at least realize that this reference isn't coming out of the blue.

3. You'll probably get Omar on the phone if you do call. I don't know how much he knows, but I'm sure he knows more than I do (I don't know what his background is). Hopefully he can either put you in touch with Charly, and who knows, he may even be able to tell you what's involved with the re-machining procedure (I don't know if it's a standard re-machining or whether some special steps need to be taken).

4. Don't let Charley scare you about leakage problems. Shops are biased because they see exposure to the leakage problems when people bring a car in for exactly that problem. Charly is of the "they all leak unless fixed at the factory (like mine) or repaired under warranty" school. I simply know of WAY too many 964 owners with high mileage (100K plus) without any significant leaks, and can only confirm a single person actually having this problem (probably a 10:1 ratio if I had to guess).

I was quite happy with the work they did, and the general consensus of PCA members in this area is that they are one of the top shops.

My point in all of this is that if he knows a way to minimize/eliminate leaks by re-machining that's time proven, maybe you should go ahead and do it on all six. Who knows, maybe he can even recommend a shop in the area you are in or are moving to (kind of doubt it, but who knows?). I don't know how many others are aware of this procedure, but it's worth looking in to....if you could re-machine all the heads and and eliminate the oil-leak risk completely it may be worth looking into...especially if it only costs a couple of long distance phone calls.

Good Luck,


Bill Wagner