That's another variable that I think you can likely remove from the idea of this as a business; true racecar builds. I am not surprised to hear your friend paid that much for a racecar. Last year I sold Frank Beck a $1000 914 rolling chassis. As we pushed it into his trailer he joked that he had just spent the first of 100 $1000's that would be put into building that car. When they are really truly built as racecars versus street hot rods that see some track use there is a whole extra level of detail to build quality and strength that goes into it while installing all of the required fire suppression, fuel delivery, and other safety features that are installed. The fender gaps might not be quite as perfect as on a nice street rod replica, but they'll spend a lot of extra money on safety as well as on the engine, tranny, suspension, and brakes...

As others have already said, it depends on the buyer and how badly they want it.
I've seen nicely done RS clones not even get halfway to reserve at auctions, while plain-jane, unmolested 911s in good shape of any vintage surpass the reserve or projected sales price by a substantial margin.
Generally, the more buyers who might consider bidding on your car, the more likely the bidding will go higher.
Having read many of these RS stories on Pelican, and the amount of $$ people put into them, I believe it's fair to say you're not likely to get it all back when you sell, based on the current market.
That said, I also think (and hope) that the older, air-cooled 911s will only go up in price in years to come.
So if you build it and hold onto it for twenty years, you'll probably do OK, providing you don't wreck it.
My two cents.

based on all these answers, i think if you tell us exactly what would be in it, like engine, suspension, brakes, etc, we can give you a much more accurate figure.

Totally agree!

In regards to value and getting the final product registered, what is the importance of tub selection? Would it be best to use a tub with a clean title or is a good straight tub with a rebuilt/slavage title OK too? Will this ultimately effect the selling price even with a quality build from a well known builder?

Just to keep this discussion going....here's an example of a high quality, home built, widebody longhood:

-'77 911 chassis. Non sunroof, non A/C, manual windows, accident and rust free shell with 85k miles. Clean title.
-'86 3.2 engine built to euro spec along with 964 cams, SW chip. ~100k miles, rebuilt @ 50k by Porsche dealership. Excellent current leakdown and compression #'s. The goodies were added at the time of the rebuild. All paperwork and history available.
-Carrera cooler and lines.
-9&11x17 Lindsey Fuchs.
-Elephant polybronze bushings and monoballs.
-21/29 TB's and custom valved Bilsteins.
-Adjustable F + R swaybars.
-Metal rear 930 flares slightly reshaped.
-Getty fiberglass backdate hood, RSR fenders, bumpers, and ducktail. Plenty of time spent on fitment. Factory spec body panel gaps.
-Backdated drivers side mirror. Pass. side deleted.
-All new body seals.
-Polished body trim.
-H4 headlamps, repro turn signal housings.
-Carrera brakes.
-'86 915 with factory LSD. 50k since rebuild by Porsche dealership. All paperwork and history available. Good condition.
-Rennshift shifter, brass bushing'd shift coupler.
-Wevo engine and trans mounts.
-Backdated heat.
-Fairly period correct minimal black interior.
-Color of choice exterior. Professional glass out, fenders off, paint job.

No it's not for sale. An estimated $$$ value would be helpful though for insurance purposes and to add to this conversation!

I would think you absolutely need a tub with correct VIN plate atttached and good title.

If the car is to be registered for street use, be careful with the engine in certain states. You may need a cat to pass emissions testing, and carbs might not pass unless the car originally came with them.

Yes, this would be a good example of a build that might be represented here. I would expect this to be the minimum build, and detail / cost to go up from there.

Mid to high 30s. Because most people today simply want a 3.6 and Big Reds.

I agree.

One of the things I like about my '77 is that it is a 'non-catalyst' model. From the factory it had an air pump but no cat.

Assuming nice paint, my guess =
$25k sales price.
$30k to build in your garage
$45k to build at a professional shop.

I think these numbers are low.

The sum of the quality components alone will be knocking at the bottom number.
Given that no professional shop IMO will build that car for $45,000.

I also think to the proper buyer the car is worth more than $25k.

Title is only relevant to a suspect build. Many old longhoods are being pulled off the scrap heap to be re-invigorated.

This conversation does make me think along the lines of the "Eleonore's" being produced in Texas vs cobra kit cars. They take 67-68 mustangs and re-create. Much like the cars we are speaking of. They sell for premium dollars.

Luke,
Maybe I'm a bit off, but not by a huge factor. Also, if you look in the classifieds, you'll see nice cars sitting for sale. Did Chris Nielsen sell his orange widebody with the 3.2? Asking was $45k. I'm not sure of all of the parts. Having done several cars, it is obvious he produces a high quality finished product.

add the sum of the parts + $5k to $8k for a nice mid year tub. Add $8k to $10k for paint and body work; $2k for flares. Doing a 3.2 conversion is mostly a bolt in. $6k to $7k for a nice 3.2. $5k for shop 3.2 conversion. Redoing the suspension is $4k to $6k labor. Adding Carrera brakes? $2000 for the LSD and 915? $800 for cooler and hoses.
Suspenion parts are $4k?

$8k tub
$10k paint
$2k body parts
$2k FG bumpers
$7k motor
$5k conversion
$2k trans
$5k suspension install
$4k suspenion parts
~$1k oil cooler upgrade
$3k miscellaneous
$3k Wheels and tires
_________________
$50k

You could spend more to rebuild the engine and trans, another $2500 for a brake upgrade, more $2500 for a coil - over upgrade, do infinite mods to the tub. I don't see $50k as a budget build though.

I've been wondering that myself.

Yea, I think Chris did sell that Orange RSR for $45k. I would call that a pretty good example of a type of car that I was thinking about when I started this thread. I think the detail level would go up from there.

One other note about the sale of the cars...in my opinion, a lot of people don't go about it the right way. I think in some ways we do ourselves a disservice by only trying to sell it on Pelican. I think because we're all so involved in these cars, we have a very practical sense of how much these cars might cost. I think in the "open" market, the cars might capture more value from someone that isn't so intimately involved in them. That's not to say eBay, but you might try some other alternatives to sell it.

A few more data points:

The orange car (before being painted orange):
http://www.early911sregistry.org/forum/showthread.php?t=16021

Shorthood 930 RSR:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/390417-fs-930-rsr-excellece-featured-show-winner-1st-45k.html

C4RSR:
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/357623-fs-c4rsr.html

Two points: 1, I think I might have liked Chris' car in flat black better. It was bad@ss, no? And that c4 backdate was a total steal at 40k.

At any rate, I think we're all agreed that $40k seems like a good starting point, and it can go up from there depending on the details, and the buyer.

In terms of ROI, we'll never get sweat equity back...but if you love what you do, it seems possible at the very least to get your invested money back.

To have a reputable shop build you a hot rod from a bare chassis up with quality parts you are looking at 100K plus. This is for a top shelf car and there are shops that will do something for 60-70K but the devil is in the details. Enjoy the car for a few years and sell for half. I don't think there is money in building these cars on spec, you need clients with open check books to make money because when spending that kind of coin you will want it tailored to your tastes or interests.

There is another area of the car that's often overlooked towards the total expense: The interior

After spending all the dough in mechanicals, paint and suspension you still have another $2K - $5K on interior depending on your preference - carpet, headliner, door panels, seatbelts, seats, seat hardware, etc.

and impetuousness..... go back to Matteo's build and the 6spd transmission purchase....or my stopping at the shop working w/ my car and swapping out the shocks.....or my wife remodeling of...oh... that's another thread....

I respectfully disagree. If there were no market and no money to be made, Autofarm UK would not be able to stay in business.

As far as I know Autofarm builds cars for clients, not on spec. I could be wrong though.

Ugh...I know. Don't remind me. I haven't even budgeted for that yet on my build, and unfortunately, you can't sandblast and repaint a carpet set to get "like new" quality. I think I like metal better. ;)

The general rule of thumb is that you'll get back $0.50 for every dollar you spend. A friend of mine just bought a Brumos #59 clone for $75,000. The car has every single detail right. It's a 3.0 engine with a 935 suspension. If the original Brumos car had something this car has it. It may be as close to the real deal as I've ever seen.

The original owner spent close to $200,00 on the car. It was professionally done by a very reputable shop.

Any clone is going to be a real money pit. The better it is the more money you're going to spend. It's an endless cycle. The bottom line however is that with a well done car you're still lucky to get fifty cents on the dollar back.

Richard Newton

Autocross Performance Handbook

Wheel and Tire Performance Handbook

As far as I know, they have set build kits and models that you can just purchase outright, as well as being able to customize a version for yourself.

Autofarm has three RS lightweight models they spec. This price assumes the donation of a 3.2 Carrera. Mind you, these are full restorations based on a galvanized, straight tub:

(Pounds converted to Dollars, without tax)

Autofarm 911 Classic: 107,702.29 USD
Autofarm 911 Grand Touring: 129,299.52 USD
Autofarm 911 Sport Lightweight: 156,730.03 USD

It's worth it to note that the dollar is really, really weak against the pound. I don't know if we could fetch prices that high, but I think it's interesting that they seem to have thought of everything.

This is the autofarm brochure, in PDF form. Pretty comprehensive.

http://www.autofarm.co.uk/pdf/AF911Brochure1107.pdf

It would be more accurate to leave the pounds as pounds. A pint of ale in the UK is about 3 pounds like a pint of beer here is $3. ;) Exhcange rates will screw you every time...

Kaefer pointed out three nice 911s for sale. Their asking prices were all in the $40ks+, but all have been for sale off and on for about one year. None display their actual sales price. To me, those don'tt exactly validate the value of this market. If something is a "steal", would it not sell somewhat quickly? (weeks, as opposed to months to years)

I hope I'm not seen as being the pessimist here, but more of a realist. Would I like my car to be worth $80k? Yes!
And hey.....
At $60k, it is a heck of a deal compared to the Autofarm cars - WOW! Those are VERY pricey. Even adding a WEVO shifter costs 2.2 X the retail WEVO product price.

So Empty-
Are you going to start a shop? What's the wrap up?
Doug

Well, I'm exploring some options. I think there's a possibility to open something with multiple revenue streams that might be a new idea in this market. Whether or not it will include spec-built RSR or RS clones remains to be seen. I think it has a lot to do with how efficient you can make the process, and who you have working in the shop. Just exploring some ideas.

Oh, and it's "emptyo", or m-t-o, which are my initials.

Mike

There are some nice examples with prices for comparison on this site.

www.johnstarkeycars.com/

You cannot walk into Autofarm and walk away with a brand new car. I called them... It's 9-12 months wait depending on your specific needs and 50% money down before the even start looking for a donor car.

They might have a car there for you to buy immediately, but it is not a zero miles car, but rather a customer's car whose owner has upgraded, got bored or else.

"Lets make some assumptions:

Lets say the car was based on a longhood 911T, and was a bare chassis restoration. Rust free, as period-correct as can be, and with a hot-rod engine. (May or may not be built to RSR specs. )

Think BBII, SoCal70RSR's car, or DW SD's car.'
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Above are the guidelines set by Emptyo in his thread-starting post. Using those parameters, the most I would be willing to spend would be 30-35K. That's not to say that any of those p-cars aren't worth much, much more, just that if I were to spend more I would buy a newer Porsche.

One of our Pelican members had his beautiful P-Car, a 1979SC built into a long-hood RSR hotrod, for sale for 65k and the last I heard it hadn't sold. Even though it had an insured value of 90K. That is one awesome p-car but when you get into that price range, in my opinion, there are too many other options.

We can all agree that these cars are worth more but the question was: how much would we be willing to spend on one. YMMV

Agreed. I think those were built for people's personal tastes, as opposed to what Autofarm is doing. Again, I think it just has to do with efficiency in the shop...if you have a system and process for each car.

I'll tell you what would be cool though...finding early tubs, repairing them, zinc-coating them, then selling them to folks for restoration for like 12k. You could do stock or flared versions, or even backdated versions. Sell the rest of the parts off the car for a profit, and the price of the chassis being sold is gravy.

Who's in? ;)

I think Bill hit the nail on the head and this has been repeated many times in this thread. It's not about what the car may be worth on paper, it is what people are willing to pay. Advertised prices are one thing and people that are trying to recoup their invested costs will see their cars sit on the market for a long time. $0.50 on the dollar.

Once you find yourself in the $50K+ price range, I think you've started to narrow your target audience and push yourself into a bracket where there's lots of cross shopping (newer cars like an Elise, other repros like Cobra replicas, etc). A true collector wouldn't consider your offering as they've got the $ for the real deal.

So the real question is not what 'pelicans' would be willing to spend because I don't think thats your intended market. It is what other people would be willing to spend and who those other people are...

Exactly. It's what I wrote a few posts up. I think we're all agreed...it's somewhere between $30k on up, depending on the job and the buyer.

You're preaching to the choir here. :)

I think there may be a market. Owning and having owned and built a few 911's now, I have some pretty clear opinions on them.

I think if you try and build a semi-authentic clone you will lose money. All those NOS and rare parts cost a lot of money and take forever to source. In my opinion those parts though do nothing for the driving experience, and I think the people that will buy these turn-key cars are going to buy them to drive.

I own a 100% stock 1969 911E and quite honestly I think it's crap to drive. It has minimal power ( any modern family car will kill it in a straight line ). It doesn't really handle either on it's stock suspension and skinny tyres. ( again - relative to any modern car ). I enjoy taking it out for a very occasional drive and appreciate the 'period' experience and a leisurely cruise, but for anything else I love my hot rod 911's. My RS replica has a ton more power ( 3 litre with mods ), handles ( lots of suspension mods ) and has modern seats, bigger tyres, etc. It still gives me the raw early 911 experience, but can hold it's own from the stop light or on a twisty road with modern machinery.

At some point I'll get tired of the time and effort required to build these cars, and might be shopping for a cool early 911 to DRIVE, and so a stylish RSR / RS replica would be my choice. And I KNOW what it costs to build one, and therefore will be realistic in my pricing expectation.

And the other thing - the cars Emptyo mentioned as his examples will never sell for $35K ( unless the owners have a sudden fit of madness and desperate financial crisis ) so for someone else to say they wouldn't buy any of them for more than $35K is kinda mute. Fact is if you want a car like these it's going to cost $100K+ to build with a good shop, maybe $75K to DIY, then the low end will be set by those in most financial need to sell their car quickly. So let's all agree now not to sell our cars cheap OK ? :-)

I'm just finishing an RS clone myself (with a budget). I think that it would be a ball to be in the Autofarm business. However, the people that have been able to make money in the business are those with a strong reputation as a shop such as TRE in LA or 3R here in Denver. They do work on a time & materials basis for their customers. None of these guys build cars on spec, and they sell to the Pelican crowd.

I suspect that, if anything, selling to a broader audience would be harder rather that easier. How many people out there even know what a '73 carrera RSR is? Emptyo is right that you could probably get they cost down by having efficient business processes, but even at reduced cost I suspect that the market is very limited for something like this. An example is Unique Motorcars and their recreation Shelby mustangs. They recently went belly up.

A better business opportunity might be to develop body conversion kits that are simple(r) and are easier to install and finish. Dave at TRE seems to have already taken some steps in that direction.

i think it is safe to assume that paying someone to build an rsr clone to any degree will cost more than the car would sell for. i am nearly finished with my rsr and i did a majority of the work myself. assuming i value my hours as free (i'm not trying to make money at this) i likely could break even with the second rsr i build, the first one i learned on. if i had to make a business out of this there would need to be some mass production methods to streamline the bodywork specifically. restoration/hot rod body shops are some of the most inefficient businesses i know of. adding a parts department and it might work - just like what TRE is doing. i don't think you will get rich off it however.

The issue here is being confused; value vs. passion.

If you want long term value it pays to invest in a painstaking restoration of a car with high marks for originality. Long term value or ROI will be much more predicable. 67S softies are selling for 150,000, 117,000 and one is listed for 105,000. An investment based upon sound historic principles of collecting.

The building of a replica, hot rod, recreation or interpretation is an act of passion. Very specific toward an individuals desires with a much more limited market. Does my 3.2T need authentic sport seats or a aluminum deck lid? Yes. Is there a market for a $60,000 1973 3.2 hot rod. No! So why? My passion for the car.

Is there a business model for producing $100,000 RSR replicas?
Yes. It is limited and the cars produced are high end cars as they should be. If they are produced with pedigree they will have a better chance of holding their value but are still subject to finding a buyer in a much smaller market.


Is there a business model producing $30,000 replicas? No, At that range most of the cars would be paint jobs and stripes. Not enough margin to support a business.

Can you buy a great hot rod or replica for $30k to $50k? Yes, but you are taking advantage of someone tiring of what was once his passion.

Here's a nice example on ebay that emcompasses a lot of what's being discussed here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsche-911-911-1973-PORSCHE-911-DREAM-CAR_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ10156QQihZ007QQitem Z170193142539QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Lots of goodies... and I would almost be willing to bet, if anyone on this forum were to buy it, they'd still find themselves personalising the car, adding another $5K - $10K after the purchase.