You know, after my last post, I thought about this a little bit more and I might be looking at it backwards. We've all kind of agreed that the tub itself is the greatest obstacle to this endeavor. In light of that, maybe that's really where the focus needs to be. My above ideas put the burden of the tub on the end user. But what if the kit were based around the tub?

Drawing even more from Factory Five's approach, what if one were to produce a tube frame based tub with full cage that you deliver skinned with either longnose or shortnose RSR body panels in primer? It still requires that the end user go out and find a "retired" 911 to work with. But now, they are sourcing their own driveline, suspension, brakes, interior, etc. etc. It lets the end user truly spec everything that they put into it to put it together. You could still offer some sort of standardized suspension and brake package that is an add on sale if they want it, but it's not required to purchase the "kit". Then what you are making is really a kit car that looks like a 911 RSR versus a 911 that looks like an RSR. Do you think you could sell skinned tubs for $20k?

No worries. I realize that what I am posting is kind of stream of consciousness. And ideas only ever get refined and grow with dialogue as far as I am concerned. That's the whole point of forums in my eye. See my last post. My previous ideas were avoiding touching the tub at all.

But with respect to your above comments, I don't think any of the required vendors for my earlier ideas would give you great discounts below what any other wholesaler would get. But you wouldn't be selling to Porsche owners who would know they could just call Elephant or Shaw or Audobahn Interiors. You wouldn't even be offering much of a discount at retail to sell it as a package. What you would be doing is selling a newbie the ability to build the whole thing complete without having to educate themselves and shop around and pay the freight from 24 different vendors once they figured out exactly what they wanted from each. Instead, you would offer them one stop shopping.

It seems that this really matters to these kit car guys. When I sell a g50 to a GTM or Ultima owner, 9 times out of 10 they also buy the throwout fork, clutch kit, starter, slave cylinder, ring gear and CV's from me at the same time. These buyers have the rolling up their sleeves and building it on their mind more than the research. Sure, you get those guys who research every bit and piece and price and spec to the Nth degree. And they just buy a tranny because they can save $15 on a starter from "x" and $25 on a clutch kit from "y". But most of them just want their tranny and related components yesterday so they can get that car put together before 4th of July so they can go show it off. It's an American immediate gratification sort of thing...

This is where it falls apart for me.....I can't see a newbie paying $100k+ for an RSR replica. He has no idea to the value.

this would be a good question for shawn based on his experience building winston/nextel/sprint cup cars (or as he calls them...taxis). i will get him to chime in if he is able. i think he may say that the numbers you cite for skinned tubs could be a little on the light side but maybe not.

anything is possible...just takes time and money.

here is a nice picture of shawn's 73...currently for sale.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1203006728.jpg

I used to think the same thing until I saw what these guys were doing with these other kit cars. One of these Cobra builders I've been dealing with told me that he's had two of the Cobra replicas he's built recently go through Hemmings at auction. Both cars sold in the $80-90K range, and based on what he told me, the original buyers paid more like $75k to have the cars built. These damned things have actually appreciated!!! I think that's silly. But it appears to be true.

I never said that it makes sense. As many have remarked it seems to be about passion. Outside of traditional Porsche circles, I suspect there might be enough mainstream interest that it could work. There's Countach replicas. There's Daytona replicas. There's 959 replicas. Why shouldn't an RSR replica be out there? Of course, you would see all kinds of twists on it. I suspect many would take the Renegade Hybrids approach and put a 350 into these kits. Or Subaru engines. Or rotary RX-8 engines.

Jack, nice post. You should be a writer, oh wait never mind

these cars are pretty nice cars...
http://hsrrace.com/HSR/HSRHome.nsf/weblinks/EJEN-5ZUTKT?OpenDocument

Okey dokey, here goes my .02...

The problem is the question is too vague. I would pay $50-100K for an RSR replica. I however wouldn't buy it off the lot. I would need to spec it out and have it custom built. When you pay that kind of money for a "replica" or ''clone" you have an idea in mind and you want it done your way.

I'm basing this on my experience when buying a factory five cobra replica.

I was faced with buying a used one ($20K+) and then customizing it, building it myself (no time, space or patience to do it) or having it custom built. I had it custom built.

So you see I was willing to pay $50K for a cobra replica but it had to be perfect (ie my perfect cobra). So buying it off the lot was out of the question. I would have only paid half that if it was sitting on a lot.

The other thing that makes it tough to sell a high priced clone on the lot is the classified sections here. I mean there are driveable cars selling all the time for $15k or less. I could easily take it to a shop and drop $35K in the guys lap and have a nice rsr clone built. I mean basically it would be like buying a kit!!! A running, driving kit that I just add or change parts on.

Does that make sense???

Oh and I'm sure some of you are wondering how the cobra turned out...

http://www.ffcobra.com/photopost/dat...MG_0446xxx.jpg

http://www.ffcobra.com/photopost/dat...MG_0455xxx.jpg

Nice looking car.

Another data point:

http://www.gt-racing.com/specials/index.html

RSR conversion built on an '84 Carrera chassis.

Jeez. that's cheap!

thats only cosmetic stuff... on a 82k miles 84.... That's twice as much as a stock 84 Carrera... MMMm no thanks!

Man my head is up my butt at times! Thanks for pelican.

i think the first problem w/ the later model clones is the blacked out window trim. that to me really kills the period look and feel.

See right there is the problem with selling rsr clones already pre-built.

Ferrari pete doesn't like the black trim. So any RSR clone on the lot with black trim is out. (and that's fine, if he's plunking down the cash, he should get what he likes).

I don't mind the black trim. On some cars I like it, some I don't. On a backdate it's OK. If done to an original longhood, i don't like it most of the time.

Now the car FP posted, Shawn's car, is a beautiful car. I'd sell my middle testicle to get it. However if it was up to me, I would have more period correct seats and lose the blue accents.

That's why already built RS\RSR clones almost never sell for top $$$. Only in rare cases is the car spot on perfect for the buyer. In most cases the buyer is already calculating the extra $$ needed to make it his...

I think the pre-fab 911 tub idea is really a good one, but still expensive @ $20k using the Factory Five model. The attractive part of Factory Five or the Cobra replicas is the fact that they are a very lightweight package, but use cheap, robust drivetrains. Theoretically, one donor car provides most of the parts.
I almost pulled the trigger on building a Cobra kit when I decided to do the 911. I decided the Cobra was too expensive - projected $45k total for the build. Now I'm into the 911 for nearly what I had budgeted for the Cobra. Am I disapointed, no.
The cool thing about the Cobra would have been that I was to do a build using all new parts. On the 911, most parts were used.
Someone should talk to the Factory Five folks about their perception of the 911 market. I know there were issues with being a copy of the Cobra, so they had to modify the trunk a bit. It has a perky A$$. I wonder if Porsche would go after a company building tube frames and FG 911s? And IF you are doing that, would people prefer 962s, 906s or another tube frame Porsche to the 911???

Doug

I did this all steel RSR 4 years ago as a side project to building my car. I never wanted to try to build a clone that is the reason I painted the car Polar silver with Pelican blue wheels. I do think things can get out of hand and your bank account/wife will notice very quickly. If you have the patience and know what you want then build it or have it built. I do strongly recommend you have a concept and a plan before starting or you will go way beyond your initial ideas. Just my .02



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1203175813.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1203175893.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1203175923.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1203175982.jpg

This thread has gone crazy. I think the opinions expressed here here are why Doug calls his an RSR interpretation. It is a beautiful car but someone else may want carrera script on the side or whatever. The bottom line goes back to the early thread that restates basic supply and demand. The price is what a willing buyer and willing seller agree on. Most of the RSRs that have been posted on this forum are great cars in their own way but a new owner will certainly make some changes to personalize it. I do know from experience with most cars being built/restored, it is cheaper to buy one than to build one unless you do ALL the work yourself and you don't put a value on your time. I don't mean buy one from a professional builder based on a build contract either. That is just as expensive or more expensive than building one yourself with outside help. I bill my clients for professional services and my own garage time is like mental therapy to me so I don't put a value on it. I am just happy to be in the shop working with a little music in the background and a cool one nearby. Just my .02. Now back to work for me

is that you shawn? chilly's old car? if so, it would be nice if you could post the pictures of the cage and the a piler detail.

pcb

It looks like Shawn's car got up to $55K before the auction ended?

Good data point! Shawn's car looked very nice, but nothing TOO extreme. With the 935 suspension and 3.6, it is a wolf in some sheep's clothing.

Doug

yes, the car is sold and going to germany. so, the weakeness of our currency and the strength of the euro creates a good deal for the new owner.

sad to see the car leaving the country however as that is one over the top car!! again, the build just made we weak in the knees...it is a car i would have loved to have space and money permitting.

good luck to the new owner...enjoy!

pcb

It sounds to me that Porsche should bring this car back into production!!!!!!!!!!!! I'd buy one...

Nada, zip. I already have the exact one that I searched for, for MANY years. See some good things did come out of the mid 80's Miami hay days!

Matt...are you "Carquip" Matt?

Hi - I just bought an RSR Clone from a self builder who has built several race cars. I paid well north of $50k, but I am happy with what I got. I guess I fall into the checkbook type of buyer, but I am an enthusiast -- I wanted that car (2400lbs/300hp 3.6 varioram) because it was magical in the way it drove.

One thing I wanted to add to this thread is that the RSR is a coupe and the Cobra never had a roof! That is an enormous difference in a driver. I had a Cobra kit from Backdraft that was wicked fast (2080lbs/585hp) but was more of a motorcycle than a car. Building RSR kits has more viability because they are coupes, IMO.

Thinking about unloading this beastie in the coming months.
That will give you another data point.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1340516037.jpg

Guys,
I have a very recent data point. I sold mine for $62.5k locally here to someone in Orange County. He's owned many other Porsches, including a '73 S.

I've been interested to build another project and needed the garage space and the extra $ don't hurt.

My car was quite well finished with a hotrodded 3.6 (274 rwhp), two coolers, thermostatically controlled fans. 930 brakes, LSD, Jae Lee / Mirage International designed / setup suspension, many other mods and with outstanding paint.

Doug

Doug,

Wow. I'm happy and sad for you at the same time! You've been a great help with my own car and many others on Pelican.

I'm sure whatever project you have in mind will turn out fantastic. Keep us updated!

Looks nice! How much?

Hey Scott,
thank you. I had been thinking about this for a while and decided the timing was right. This might be a good reference comparable for those of you who sell yours after me.

Part of me wants to build one these:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1342138372.jpg
SuperLite Cars Made in the USA, Engineered to Win on the Street and Track by Race Car Replicas
2400 lbs, modern aluminum monocoque chassis with an LSv-8 and Porsche transaxle. I already picked up a G50/52 from a 964 turbo. but haven't ordered the car, yet.

Another part wants to build an old hot rod like a 50s Ford pickup with air bags a new LS motor. Just something different to take my kids to the car shows with.

Still another part wants to build another 911 to which I'd take to a whole other level

And a bit of me wants to just enjoy my family and two young kids with no distractions (7 months and 4.5 years).

I'm happy. I see the vacant spot in the garage and I don't really miss it. That's a good sign. Nature abhors a vacuum, though. Something will fill in. :D

Doug

Wow = Kermee - Doug - glad they are going for decent money -

Struggling with that right now.
What's fair for me....and fair for the market???

Way too much in it....to ever get even again, but not trying for that.

More interested in getting the car to the right person.

Not sure I'd try to sell for less than $75k.
But that's my problem. :rolleyes:

I'm certainly not knocking those prices listed, but nice examples usually sell for in the @$35k range.. The ones going for much higher have many more expensive upgrades in the engine/transmissions.

310 hp/271 ft-lb torque RS V-ram engine with Wevo/Ledbetter Euro 915

15x9 and 15x11 Wiedmans RSR Fuchs with Michelin TB15's

TRE Motorsports and Kundensports RSR paint & body

on & on & on

I've got almost $35k just in the engine alone on this car....

This car might have just a few more of those expensive upgrades you're talking about. :p

Doug, (dw sd) did you get pricing on the SLC?

And yes, other Doug, exactly!!

Another data point on ebay currently....

Porsche : 911 Hot Rod Porsche : 911 Hot Rod | eBay

Looks solid and well built.
No affiliation.

Wow Mark this $$ makes me want to take your green meanie RSR!

That White car has been for sale for quite a while I think. he needs to sell the CCWs and get some custom 17" Fuchs to get that money imho. really makes the look on these.

Not one of these? Race-Car-Replicas - 586-329-1573 - 917 Specs

To Jack’s and other people’s points about value of RSRs in general, I think that for any car of this type, the curve looks like this:

1. Car is new & extremely valuable because it is a limited production tool sold by the factory to win races.
2. Car wins races and become famous. Other professional racers want one and there are not enough to go around so price is high, and for the rest of us, we are in high school and all want one too.
3. Next year’s car comes along and this one is the old hack. Old race cars are not worth much except for spares. For a time club racers might keep them living a bit longer, but that’s the end of it.
4. Guys with no money buy them because they are the least expensive way to get a Porsche (or whatever brand)
5. Many years later (often in our 40s +) we start to remember the cars of our youth, and the early cars become appealing again. Supply and demand dictates price, but the ceiling is relatively low.
6. A few well-built versions like Jack’s get our attention. Demand increases among the “back in high school” crowd.
7. Then something interesting happens. The cars either fall off the radar and drop down to nothing, OR they become famous for being famous! I call this the Paris Hilton factor, but this is the catalyst to collectability.
8. First the brand aficionados hit. They are the ones who appreciate the car for what it is along with its heritage. They’ll pay what it takes to get the right one. What is right depends on where you are in the social and financial classes. There is room at the lower end and at the very high end.
9. Then, rich people who may not even really know what they are looking at know that they need one in their collection, and prices are suddenly in the millions, particularly for the real good ones with some provenance. “I’ve got the “ insert famous event here” car. Events might be historic racing events, or first off production line or at Paris car show events, but also may be the car from all the magazine articles back in the day.

If step 7 is the dividing line, then an RSR and replica may really make it or may not.

Kind of a famous historic figures (This is the spoon that Alexander The Great used to eat soup on his visit to…), famous performers (Sir Laurence Olivier & Charlton Hesston – I saw the movie and want to own that hat) and famous for being famous (Paris Hilton) kind of thing.

Then there are the David Cassidy’s of the car world, who had their moments but didn’t last, even though some would say that they did some fine work.

This ending has yet to be told. Will the RSR let alone the replica become yesterday’s news or will it and anything that looks like it become highly sought after in the long term?

Right now building my own RSRish car is exciting!