How much would you pay for an RSR clone?
 

No, don't worry, I'm not selling my car before it's done. But I'm curious to know what the value on the open market might be. I don't need hard numbers, but a range would be great.

Lets make some assumptions:

Lets say the car was based on a longhood 911T, and was a bare chassis restoration. Rust free, as period-correct as can be, and with a hot-rod engine. (May or may not be built to RSR specs. )

Think BBII, SoCal70RSR's car, or DW SD's car.

I know you're a do-it-yourselfer, but lets assume you can afford it, and are willing to pay to just pick it out and drive it off the lot.

How much?

My inclination is $40-$75k, depending on the specs, but maybe I'm low or high.

I think I can track down how much a restored car would be, from the Excellence charts if they are accurate.

Thanks...

It's whatever the market will bear.

All it takes is one buyer who wants it badly enough. However, this is usually not related to a quick sale.

Sherwood

No, I understand that....its worth how much someone is willing to pay. But, I'm just trying to get a general idea. Thanks...

You would be on the lower end of what you were thinking. Remember that all of these "trends" (wide body kits, body kits, race kits, conversions done in the 80's, 959 kits) do not last too long, right now is a hot market if you want to sell a 911 with an RSR looking body but in a couple years, after these vehicle start showing their age, and the seams where flairs were improperly welded start rusting and popping out the paint underneath, the prices will drop and guys like me will have to figure out how to reverse what has been done to these nice 911T's to make them right again.

If you have a restored 911T, you are at the pinnacle of its value. Modify it and buyers will pay less.

Ok, so you're thinking $40-50k? I'm not pinned on the RSR look...just restored cars. Happy to focus on whatever the current trend is, actually. :)

i think the range could reach 75k for a top notch car. not nesseserily with original rare parts. i don't think these conversions will suffer the same fashion problems as the slant nose/959/update type conversions, basically because they are based on the classic 70s race designs. the long hoods converted to short hoods, gemballa type conversions etc look silly today. an rs or rsr looked good then, in the 80s, the 90s today and tomorrow. if someone wants an rsr clone and is looking at converting/rebuilding a car the cost will run 70k+, if a good car was on the market at less than that it will sell. i've seen rsr clones advertized for over 90k, but they seem to sell for 40-75k.

Gestalt1 - I know what you are thinking, and I know how you got to your conclusion. I should say that perhaps a 959 conversion and this type are on different ground, however both reduce the value of a quality vehicle. Think of it like the recreation vehicles, for example an old fake 356 speedster isn't worth anything like a new recreation fake speedster because its not original so it wears into a much less attractive and valuable item. I say don't go fake anything and restore what is already a rare commodity or better yet maintain it original/stock for maximum value.

more like 30s,. but it simply depends on whats in it. (what type motor, suspension, etc..)

How much will it sell for? Probably less than it will cost to build...

I think that you will find that the range is huge depending on two big variables, both of which have been touched on.

Number one will be what parts were used. If the car has got a genuine 2.8l with the original mechanical injection versus a built 7R case replica engine using revamped injection that's been sent of for recalibration or a 3.6l on PMO carbs there's big difference right there. In the right market, that original engine alone will bring you close to the bottom of the above price range for just the engine.

Same thing about steel factory flares versus some GT or Shaw flares. Same goes for wheels, seats, bumpers, steering wheel, gauges. etc. ad naseum. I think you get the point.

Number two is kind of the same thing. Who built the car? Or who contributed in significant ways? Something built by Al Johnson or Dave at TRE or Rothsport, etc. will carry a premium above even the most meticulous of home builders. There will be subtle attentions to detail, as well as qualititative differences that will show themselves over time. Even glass flares installed by one of these professionals will arguably weather the years better than what the majority of shadetree restoration buffs will turn out of their own garage. And a $4000-5000 paint job shows itself as a $4000-5000 paint job.

Given all that, I would widen the range. I would say $20k-$100K. We've all seen them Ebay at the bottom of the range. As for the top? It was rumoured that the 911R replica built with factory parts that was featured in Excellence a year or two ago sold shortly after the article ran for somewhere in the $90-95k range. I've never been able to verify that "fact" and if someone knows for sure or knows it's not true, please feel free to correct me...

30's seems awfully low to me. If Jack Olsen would sell me BBII for $30k, I'd buy it tomorrow.

Cool, thanks for the input!

I think one of the problems is that lots of guys want to build one, but not many seem to be interested in buying a turnkey one.

The point was made earlier that it depends a lot on who does the job. A car built by a well-known shop that has lots of experience building these things (like 3R Automotive in Englewood, for instance) would, in my mind, be worth a lot more than one built buy a guy in his garage. Even if that guy (you, presumably) does an outstanding job with it.

So, I'd say 30's at best for the garage guy, and maybe as high as 70's for a qualified racecar builder. That's just a guess. For all I know, Jack's car may have cost twice that to build.

Nope, I said nothing of the sort. I'm doing some research for a business for a buddy in a different state. Interesting you mention 3R though. Thanks!

I guess it depends how it is built. I know that I have way North of 75 in my 74 RS / RSR .. but it has turbo brakes, 935 suspension, 3.6 engine, LSD trans, full restoration, but welded metal flares so I never have to worry about seams (this is exactly how the factory did early turbo cars) ...
Shoot just to make the bumpers fit right there was 3x the cost of the bumpers to make them fit. Throw in all new rubbers, restored trim, new interior, set of recaro's... 1k here 2K there and bam your at 100+ to build one.

The flip side.. I have seen poorly done cars that I would not give 10K for.

I dont think I would let mine go for less than 75 and that would be a substantial loss.

I am more of a turnkey person - and have recently been tempted to start of with a 76 to 78 chassis (more rustproof) and ask TRE to backdate/restore it to a 73 RSR

No coil overs - just modified suspension and upgraded brakes to accommodate a vario 3.6 - use their interior line (seats with houndstooth/early style RS panels/new headliner etc)

As for body I would go for all steel fenders and have the 930 front fenders modified for the longhood look - 17" Rota Fox

What to pay? I really have no idea for labor here - I know the parts cost - but would be interesting for me if I had it all set up and ready for a 3.6 plant including modified 915 - me providing the engine - for 40 000 usd - given I start up with a nice bare chassis for approx 3500 usd (with no extra parts that I could sell)

Now a vario 3.6 can easily be had for 8-9000 usd here in Norway

I hear that Aircooled Racing will have a silver clone ready for the Hershey swap meet this year. Price has not been set at this time. RUMOR has it at $40K / $75K

I purchased a 73T 3.2 RS clone. It was a owner's garage fabrication. I am in the process of completing the car to my standard which includes a new interior with original sport seats, refinishing / striping of the exterior, refining some of the mechanical and electrical systems. Including purchase price, the car will easily hit the $60k mark completed and it will not be a Jeff Smith caliber car. Given what I know now I would probably have paid more initially for a more complete car.

IMO, the money is in the details such as authentic RS or RSR components, H1s, TTG or hood mounted lights, wheels and aluminum deck lids. These details with the car or without the car will still bring the dollars or currently lots of euros. As stated a proper RSR 2.8 would be worth as much if not more than any inappropriate car it is placed in.

The below valuation was offered in response to the value of restoring a 67 911 coupe. The opinion is from an astute gentlemen.....

Original Paint in Good Condition: $60,000+
#1 (Restored Show Level Stock): $50,000
#2 (Restored Street Concours Stock): $35,000
#3 (Restored Driver Stock): $25,000
#4 (Unrestored Drivable Project): $15,000
High-Level Hot Rod: $45,000 (?)

Take this valuation and add the price of a few goodies and you will have the cost. Is there a market for this type of car? Yes, but I would venture very limited.

As others have said, depends on home shop built or "TRE" built. $30K for the former, $50K to $75K for the latter.

3 years ago when the RS clone craze was going on I talked with my shop about building one clone per month, each with a sale price of $30K for a basic clone with 3.2, then start adding options. I thought that at some point you'd start to make some real $ by streamlining all processes from stripping to welding to fitting standardized glass parts, selling parts off donor cars, etc. So first car you might break even but by 5th car you might be making $10K per car. Having a "kid" onboard to handle the dirty work would pay for itself.

They didn't like it so I dropped the dream.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-Porsche-911T-with-many-mods_W0QQitemZ200199027325QQihZ010QQcategoryZ10156 QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

$22k for a quasi clone



http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsche-911-RS-replica-Calif-car-excellant-2-7-MFI_W0QQitemZ170192955904QQihZ007QQcategoryZ10156Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

$45k for a well done clone.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PORSCHE-911-3-4-ltr-RS-RSR-race-car-show-car-MFI_W0QQitemZ130197097252QQihZ003QQcategoryZ10156Q QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

$125,000 for an over the top version.

Lets assume TRE or Zuffenhaus quality on these builds. I think I have a pretty good idea now though, thanks.

Let's say they dropped my car in the ocean during transport....

I would pay the towards the top of your range for a quality build (Zuffenhaus/TRE) depending on the variables.

There are 4 things you need to consider that go into determine the value of such cars:
1) Parts
2) Labor
3) Little details
4) Time

1) This is the easiest to assess. A 935 suspension set up will bring more than a Tbar setup. A G50/01 transmission will bring more than a 915 and less than a G50/31 etc. It gets a little trickier with the motor depending on what the final use of the car will be (racing, DE, daily driver etc). The rarity and appeal of some parts (RSR distributor or G50/31 transmission etc) affect the value via their cost and the time (see last paraghraph)

2) There are lots of different skills that are involved in building one of these properly and not everybody has access to the right tools. I would pay a hefty premium for a car built by an established shop.

3) You could have 2 cars wit similar specs both built at Zuffenhaus one costing $50k and the other $75k and the difference could be insignificant for some and important to others. Custom made RSR flares vs early 930 flares, RSR oil duct vs custom made, triangulated strut brace vs custom made RSR one etc... some people would not justify the difference. Some would demand it to be done in a particular way

4) Immediate avaliability... I'd pay top to have the car on my doorstep tomorrow. If it is going to take 6 months then I might look and do it myself (or contract someone to do it).

If I am reading this right (and I am reading into it. ;) ) as a business model it's not very viable if you are talking about actually owning the cars. As Luke has pointed out, the actual cost of building them usually exceeds their resale value. Even if you model your personal labor as a shop to be $25/hour cost, there's still overhead and everything else that brings the actual cost per hour more up into the $50-60/hr range. When you roll into that, 200-400 hours of work, you are personally putting in $10,000-20,000 in labor as a business. It's really hard to pull that back out as a profit. Most everyone complains about the $80-100/hr rate most shops charge, the fact of the matter is while most shops make more money on labor than they do on parts, they still don't laugh all the way to the bank with any sort of silly margins there. I know this from the personal experience of running a shop.

I have always laughed at the ads out there for "$75k invested, will sacrifice for $37,500!" If it was an investment, that's a pretty poor return on your money. :rolleyes:

I think for this to be a viable business option you've got to take the approach that Autofarm or Paul Stephens have taken over in the UK. You would need to offer a conversion "kit" with several different packages and market yourself as a conversion shop.

And if you were going to try and buy some cars and do them either just for marketing, or to test and see if it's a viable thing, the obvious choice would be the 74-77 chassis just because they are the cheapest of the bunch with what has happened to longnose prices in the last 2-3 years. And then that poses the question of whether or not you do backdating and longnose conversions or if you focus on more of an IROC/3.0RSR look and avoid the step of adding the long nose. Profitibility comes with economy of scale and having a system in place for efficiency. Even though each car that comes in with have a different starting point, having a specific action plan for each build will make it as profitable as possible...

Hmm....interesting idea ;)

Not to knock anything coming out of our favorite shops, but since they do work at $80 to $100 per hour, they are accustomed to trying to get things done quickly. And details can be overlooked. No one is perfect. At the end of the day, a guy in the garage might be better at building the cars than a shop, especially, if he can get the right advice about which parts, the hot setup, etc.. It really just depends upon who is doing the work and how meticulous they are.

I believe my own car is worth about $40k to the right buyer. It comes with "papers" or provenance as it was written up in Excellence. That would likely add some to the value to the right buyer. It is also highly documented around here, which is a "trail" for the next owner.

All that said, at $40k, it isn't worth much more than the sum of the parts. The paint, FG parts and body work making up about $10k of the parts. $40k would offer me about zero $ for hundreds of hours of my work.

And, were I selling, I would be glad to have any shop evaluate my work against their own. Were I buying, I'd be inclined to evaluate the caliber of the work, as opposed to name of the shop that built it. I would have high expectations if Zuffenhaus or TRE built it, though.

In a nutshell, I think the car is worth the sum of the parts + up to 100% premium if the buyer likes the modifications and the quality of the execution.

Doug

If this is the case (setting up a business) then u need to answer the question if you can sell 6-8-12 cars per year at $60-70k?

Autofarm and PS work on commission only. So you go there, pick from the 3-4 std options (plus some customizable detail) drop $30-35k and go back in 12 months to pick up your car.

You could try and beat them on availability.... invest $200k on stock... and then build them as you sell them. Stick to blacks, silvers, yellows, oranges... standardize the process....

I looked into it... I do not necessarily believe these cars trade at a discount if done right and bya reputable shop, but the margins are thin and I am not sure the mkt is ready.

In 5-7 yrs time when even the new cars will be so watered down that people will look backward then it will be a good opportunity...

Without putting too much thought into my answer I'd say you can probably pick one of for less than what it costs to do...

I have a friend who told me recently how much he had paid for an RSR clone, i almost fainted right there. Price? 120K USD
I m not too savvy with the Vintage racing scene, but he said if the clone is done correctly, F.I.A. will allow such car to participate in their sanctioned race? (don't know if it make sense).
Anyway, i guess the car is at least 95% correct at that price....

I totally agree with this statement. A car built by a shop is easier to sell though and it's like having a certified quality stamp. I would personally pay a premium because of the "perceived" piece of mind.

These cars are starting to be bought by car enthusiasts that are not necessarily Porsche enths... This is where being a "known" shop pays.

If EVERYTHING else were equal, I would buy the car built by the reputable shop. Problem is no two cars are really alike.

Heck, to the average Barrett Jackson attendee, your car and mine would look alike. I would trade you for your call all day long!

Tough part about this is comparing apples to apples. Engine build, displacement, chassis mods, suspension design and setup, wheels and tires, trans + gearing, cooling (brake and oil), paint quality, etc, etc, etc play into the overall value. All can vary massively. Since most of these projects are custom, and have a million variables, it is tough to compare apples to apples.

I almost bought a cobra kit before I decided to do a 911. I decided not to buy one, since the finished cars were trading for 75% to 85% of the cost of the build parts and I wanted to build it myself. That seemed like a lost leader.

Doug

One of the Porsche Mags had an article on Autocar UK, and I'm sure I have it, but I can't track it down. Anyone happen to know which issue it was?

Here's another question...if you were shopping for one of these conversions, would it be a positive or a negative to you that the tub was a mid-year galvanized tub backdated to a longhood?

It depends who is buying:
For me, I think neutral to positive, as long as it doesn't conflict with emissions testing laws. California must be pre-76 to be smog exempt. But if you are racing it in a vintage class, then the date on the chassis is likely more important.

Doug

I remember a really nicely done (Auto Associates or other reputable North East shop) RSR clone being sold on ebay in the last year. It was silver with black lettering. Real RSR wheels, 3.6, very nice car. Anyone remember what it sold for?

Doug

It depends. Some clones are bought for historic racing. Then u need a period correct tub (pre 73 or 74 for a 74 RS clone).

Still I think you are asking the wrong crowd. Your target audience is not the Porsche aircooled fanatic. Your target is their friends.

The guys that take a ride in one of these and see them leaving a 997 C4S in the dust....

The guy that has $50-60k for a sports car. He can buy a Boxster, a used M3 etc but the thought of an older 911 is exciting.

For these guys the best would be a 964 backdate to whatever they want. ABS, working aircon, power steering.....

The retro look is a new fashion...

I think the fanatic 911 enthusiasts either builds it himself (Doug, Tom et alii) or pays a shop to do it EXACTLY like he/she wants it.

Doug at $0k your car would be a steal. Call me 1st if u ever decide to sell it... :D

You got it! You have first right of refusal on my car.

Doug

obviously there is a 4 missing...

In todays world there are enought wealty gear heads that want a turn key hot rod. That is why we are seeing the early car prices going crazy. Yes it is apples and oranges as to each car. Based on finish, running gear and all of the other things that go into a price.

Don't knock a car because it was not built by Wilhoit, Gamroth, or TRE. Jeff Smith works out of his garage! Some folks are craftsmen and some don't have a clue.

Randy Jones
1971 "Iris the Slut"

I tend to think along these lines as well. I think there's a difference between a full restoration and doing a period-correct hot rod that fires the same senses when you're driving. My 69 3.0 feels like it's an engine with wheels strapped to it, and sounds like it too. Its a very visceral driving experience. I think anyone that might go for a used M3 or a new Boxter for the same price might be able to sense that you'd get a more exhilarating experience with an early Porsche than you will with any modern car. That's why I think the market for those folks might supersede our "enthusiast" market.

That said, I've enjoyed everyone's comments and discussion about this. Thanks.

Just a datapoint--if anyone is interested--the Black Forest Smurfmobile RSR could be had for $60K here in San Diego right now. Professionally built by Mark Kinninger, a very well known and respected mechanic in Lo Cal, it is fairly immaculate, very fast (stock 3.6 power), with extra race goodies. 3rd overall at the Parade autox last July, constant TTOD threat in Zone 8.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1202755531.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1202755548.jpg

TT