How much would you pay for an RSR clone?

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by nine11speedster

I have a friend who told me recently how much he had paid for an RSR clone, i almost fainted right there. Price? 120K USD
I m not too savvy with the Vintage racing scene, but he said if the clone is done correctly, F.I.A. will allow such car to participate in their sanctioned race? (don't know if it make sense).
Anyway, i guess the car is at least 95% correct at that price....

That's another variable that I think you can likely remove from the idea of this as a business; true racecar builds. I am not surprised to hear your friend paid that much for a racecar. Last year I sold Frank Beck a $1000 914 rolling chassis. As we pushed it into his trailer he joked that he had just spent the first of 100 $1000's that would be put into building that car. When they are really truly built as racecars versus street hot rods that see some track use there is a whole extra level of detail to build quality and strength that goes into it while installing all of the required fire suppression, fuel delivery, and other safety features that are installed. The fender gaps might not be quite as perfect as on a nice street rod replica, but they'll spend a lot of extra money on safety as well as on the engine, tranny, suspension, and brakes...

[defcon65]

As others have already said, it depends on the buyer and how badly they want it.
I've seen nicely done RS clones not even get halfway to reserve at auctions, while plain-jane, unmolested 911s in good shape of any vintage surpass the reserve or projected sales price by a substantial margin.
Generally, the more buyers who might consider bidding on your car, the more likely the bidding will go higher.
Having read many of these RS stories on Pelican, and the amount of $$ people put into them, I believe it's fair to say you're not likely to get it all back when you sell, based on the current market.
That said, I also think (and hope) that the older, air-cooled 911s will only go up in price in years to come.
So if you build it and hold onto it for twenty years, you'll probably do OK, providing you don't wreck it.
My two cents.

[rattlsnak]

based on all these answers, i think if you tell us exactly what would be in it, like engine, suspension, brakes, etc, we can give you a much more accurate figure.

[e-speedster]

Originally Posted by 911teo

It depends. Some clones are bought for historic racing. Then u need a period correct tub (pre 73 or 74 for a 74 RS clone).

Still I think you are asking the wrong crowd. Your target audience is not the Porsche aircooled fanatic. Your target is their friends.

The guys that take a ride in one of these and see them leaving a 997 C4S in the dust....

The guy that has $50-60k for a sports car. He can buy a Boxster, a used M3 etc but the thought of an older 911 is exciting.

For these guys the best would be a 964 backdate to whatever they want. ABS, working aircon, power steering.....

The retro look is a new fashion...

I think the fanatic 911 enthusiasts either builds it himself (Doug, Tom et alii) or pays a shop to do it EXACTLY like he/she wants it.

Totally agree!

[draab29]

In regards to value and getting the final product registered, what is the importance of tub selection? Would it be best to use a tub with a clean title or is a good straight tub with a rebuilt/slavage title OK too? Will this ultimately effect the selling price even with a quality build from a well known builder?

[PcarPhil]

Originally Posted by rattlsnak

based on all these answers, i think if you tell us exactly what would be in it, like engine, suspension, brakes, etc, we can give you a much more accurate figure.

Just to keep this discussion going....here's an example of a high quality, home built, widebody longhood:

-'77 911 chassis. Non sunroof, non A/C, manual windows, accident and rust free shell with 85k miles. Clean title.
-'86 3.2 engine built to euro spec along with 964 cams, SW chip. ~100k miles, rebuilt @ 50k by Porsche dealership. Excellent current leakdown and compression #'s. The goodies were added at the time of the rebuild. All paperwork and history available.
-Carrera cooler and lines.
-9&11x17 Lindsey Fuchs.
-Elephant polybronze bushings and monoballs.
-21/29 TB's and custom valved Bilsteins.
-Adjustable F + R swaybars.
-Metal rear 930 flares slightly reshaped.
-Getty fiberglass backdate hood, RSR fenders, bumpers, and ducktail. Plenty of time spent on fitment. Factory spec body panel gaps.
-Backdated drivers side mirror. Pass. side deleted.
-All new body seals.
-Polished body trim.
-H4 headlamps, repro turn signal housings.
-Carrera brakes.
-'86 915 with factory LSD. 50k since rebuild by Porsche dealership. All paperwork and history available. Good condition.
-Rennshift shifter, brass bushing'd shift coupler.
-Wevo engine and trans mounts.
-Backdated heat.
-Fairly period correct minimal black interior.
-Color of choice exterior. Professional glass out, fenders off, paint job.

No it's not for sale. An estimated $$$ value would be helpful though for insurance purposes and to add to this conversation!

[porschenut]

I would think you absolutely need a tub with correct VIN plate atttached and good title.

If the car is to be registered for street use, be careful with the engine in certain states. You may need a cat to pass emissions testing, and carbs might not pass unless the car originally came with them.

[rennch]

Originally Posted by Kaefer

Just to keep this discussion going....here's an example of a high quality, home built, widebody longhood:

-'77 911 chassis. Non sunroof, non A/C, manual windows, accident and rust free shell with 85k miles. Clean title.
-'86 3.2 engine built to euro spec along with 964 cams, SW chip. ~100k miles, rebuilt @ 50k by Porsche dealership. Excellent current leakdown and compression #'s. The goodies were added at the time of the rebuild. All paperwork and history available.
-Carrera cooler and lines.
-9&11x17 Lindsey Fuchs.
-Elephant polybronze bushings and monoballs.
-21/29 TB's and custom valved Bilsteins.
-Adjustable F + R swaybars.
-Metal rear 930 flares slightly reshaped.
-Getty fiberglass backdate hood, RSR fenders, bumpers, and ducktail. Plenty of time spent on fitment. Factory spec body panel gaps.
-Backdated drivers side mirror. Pass. side deleted.
-All new body seals.
-Polished body trim.
-H4 headlamps, repro turn signal housings.
-Carrera brakes.
-'86 915 with factory LSD. 50k since rebuild by Porsche dealership. All paperwork and history available. Good condition.
-Rennshift shifter, brass bushing'd shift coupler.
-Wevo engine and trans mounts.
-Backdated heat.
-Fairly period correct minimal black interior.
-Color of choice exterior. Professional glass out, fenders off, paint job.

No it's not for sale. An estimated $$$ value would be helpful though for insurance purposes and to add to this conversation!

Yes, this would be a good example of a build that might be represented here. I would expect this to be the minimum build, and detail / cost to go up from there.

[rattlsnak]

Originally Posted by Kaefer

Just to keep this discussion going....here's an example of a high quality, home built, widebody longhood:

-'77 911 chassis. Non sunroof, non A/C, manual windows, accident and rust free shell with 85k miles. Clean title.
-'86 3.2 engine built to euro spec along with 964 cams, SW chip. ~100k miles, rebuilt @ 50k by Porsche dealership. Excellent current leakdown and compression #'s. The goodies were added at the time of the rebuild. All paperwork and history available.
-Carrera cooler and lines.
-9&11x17 Lindsey Fuchs.
-Elephant polybronze bushings and monoballs.
-21/29 TB's and custom valved Bilsteins.
-Adjustable F + R swaybars.
-Metal rear 930 flares slightly reshaped.
-Getty fiberglass backdate hood, RSR fenders, bumpers, and ducktail. Plenty of time spent on fitment. Factory spec body panel gaps.
-Backdated drivers side mirror. Pass. side deleted.
-All new body seals.
-Polished body trim.
-H4 headlamps, repro turn signal housings.
-Carrera brakes.
-'86 915 with factory LSD. 50k since rebuild by Porsche dealership. All paperwork and history available. Good condition.
-Rennshift shifter, brass bushing'd shift coupler.
-Wevo engine and trans mounts.
-Backdated heat.
-Fairly period correct minimal black interior.
-Color of choice exterior. Professional glass out, fenders off, paint job.

No it's not for sale. An estimated $$$ value would be helpful though for insurance purposes and to add to this conversation!

Mid to high 30s. Because most people today simply want a 3.6 and Big Reds.

[PcarPhil]

Originally Posted by porschenut

I would think you absolutely need a tub with correct VIN plate atttached and good title.

If the car is to be registered for street use, be careful with the engine in certain states. You may need a cat to pass emissions testing, and carbs might not pass unless the car originally came with them.

I agree.

One of the things I like about my '77 is that it is a 'non-catalyst' model. From the factory it had an air pump but no cat.

[DW SD]

Originally Posted by Kaefer

Just to keep this discussion going....here's an example of a high quality, home built, widebody longhood:

-'77 911 chassis. Non sunroof, non A/C, manual windows, accident and rust free shell with 85k miles. Clean title.
-'86 3.2 engine built to euro spec along with 964 cams, SW chip. ~100k miles, rebuilt @ 50k by Porsche dealership. Excellent current leakdown and compression #'s. The goodies were added at the time of the rebuild. All paperwork and history available.
-Carrera cooler and lines.
-9&11x17 Lindsey Fuchs.
-Elephant polybronze bushings and monoballs.
-21/29 TB's and custom valved Bilsteins.
-Adjustable F + R swaybars.
-Metal rear 930 flares slightly reshaped.
-Getty fiberglass backdate hood, RSR fenders, bumpers, and ducktail. Plenty of time spent on fitment. Factory spec body panel gaps.
-Backdated drivers side mirror. Pass. side deleted.
-All new body seals.
-Polished body trim.
-H4 headlamps, repro turn signal housings.
-Carrera brakes.
-'86 915 with factory LSD. 50k since rebuild by Porsche dealership. All paperwork and history available. Good condition.
-Rennshift shifter, brass bushing'd shift coupler.
-Wevo engine and trans mounts.
-Backdated heat.
-Fairly period correct minimal black interior.
-Color of choice exterior. Professional glass out, fenders off, paint job.

No it's not for sale. An estimated $$$ value would be helpful though for insurance purposes and to add to this conversation!

Assuming nice paint, my guess =
$25k sales price.
$30k to build in your garage
$45k to build at a professional shop.

[Macroni]

Originally Posted by DW SD

Assuming nice paint, my guess =
$25k sales price.
$30k to build in your garage
$45k to build at a professional shop.

I think these numbers are low.

The sum of the quality components alone will be knocking at the bottom number.
Given that no professional shop IMO will build that car for $45,000.

I also think to the proper buyer the car is worth more than $25k.

Title is only relevant to a suspect build. Many old longhoods are being pulled off the scrap heap to be re-invigorated.

This conversation does make me think along the lines of the "Eleonore's" being produced in Texas vs cobra kit cars. They take 67-68 mustangs and re-create. Much like the cars we are speaking of. They sell for premium dollars.

[DW SD]

Luke,
Maybe I'm a bit off, but not by a huge factor. Also, if you look in the classifieds, you'll see nice cars sitting for sale. Did Chris Nielsen sell his orange widebody with the 3.2? Asking was $45k. I'm not sure of all of the parts. Having done several cars, it is obvious he produces a high quality finished product.

add the sum of the parts + $5k to $8k for a nice mid year tub. Add $8k to $10k for paint and body work; $2k for flares. Doing a 3.2 conversion is mostly a bolt in. $6k to $7k for a nice 3.2. $5k for shop 3.2 conversion. Redoing the suspension is $4k to $6k labor. Adding Carrera brakes? $2000 for the LSD and 915? $800 for cooler and hoses.
Suspenion parts are $4k?

$8k tub
$10k paint
$2k body parts
$2k FG bumpers
$7k motor
$5k conversion
$2k trans
$5k suspension install
$4k suspenion parts
~$1k oil cooler upgrade
$3k miscellaneous
$3k Wheels and tires
_________________
$50k

You could spend more to rebuild the engine and trans, another $2500 for a brake upgrade, more $2500 for a coil - over upgrade, do infinite mods to the tub. I don't see $50k as a budget build though.

[PcarPhil]

Originally Posted by DW SD

Did Chris Nielsen sell his orange widebody with the 3.2? Asking was $45k.

I've been wondering that myself.

[rennch]

Yea, I think Chris did sell that Orange RSR for $45k. I would call that a pretty good example of a type of car that I was thinking about when I started this thread. I think the detail level would go up from there.

One other note about the sale of the cars...in my opinion, a lot of people don't go about it the right way. I think in some ways we do ourselves a disservice by only trying to sell it on Pelican. I think because we're all so involved in these cars, we have a very practical sense of how much these cars might cost. I think in the "open" market, the cars might capture more value from someone that isn't so intimately involved in them. That's not to say eBay, but you might try some other alternatives to sell it.

[PcarPhil]

A few more data points:

The orange car (before being painted orange):
http://www.early911sregistry.org/forum/showthread.php?t=16021

Shorthood 930 RSR:
FS: 930 RSR Excellece Featured Show Winner, 1st $45K

C4RSR:
Fs C4RSR

[rennch]

Two points: 1, I think I might have liked Chris' car in flat black better. It was bad@ss, no? And that c4 backdate was a total steal at 40k.

At any rate, I think we're all agreed that $40k seems like a good starting point, and it can go up from there depending on the details, and the buyer.

In terms of ROI, we'll never get sweat equity back...but if you love what you do, it seems possible at the very least to get your invested money back.

[356racing]

To have a reputable shop build you a hot rod from a bare chassis up with quality parts you are looking at 100K plus. This is for a top shelf car and there are shops that will do something for 60-70K but the devil is in the details. Enjoy the car for a few years and sell for half. I don't think there is money in building these cars on spec, you need clients with open check books to make money because when spending that kind of coin you will want it tailored to your tastes or interests.

[SoCal70RSR]

There is another area of the car that's often overlooked towards the total expense: The interior

After spending all the dough in mechanicals, paint and suspension you still have another $2K - $5K on interior depending on your preference - carpet, headliner, door panels, seatbelts, seats, seat hardware, etc.

[Macroni]

Originally Posted by 356racing

you need clients with open check books to make money because when spending that kind of coin you will want it tailored to your tastes or interests.

and impetuousness..... go back to Matteo's build and the 6spd transmission purchase....or my stopping at the shop working w/ my car and swapping out the shocks.....or my wife remodeling of...oh... that's another thread....