How much would you pay for an RSR clone?

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by emptyo

I'll tell you what would be cool though...finding early tubs, repairing them, zinc-coating them, then selling them to folks for restoration for like 12k. You could do stock or flared versions, or even backdated versions. Sell the rest of the parts off the car for a profit, and the price of the chassis being sold is gravy.

Who's in?

Sounds like what Grady has been talking about. He really thinks that Porsche needs to restamp longnose tubs like Chevy is doing with the Camaro. He was thinking people would pay $10-12k for just the tubs if they had all the modern advances in alloys, rustproofing, and strengthening. I think it's a great idea. Too bad Porsche doesn't seem too interested in the idea...

[pwd72s]

Originally Posted by emptyo

No, don't worry, I'm not selling my car before it's done. But I'm curious to know what the value on the open market might be. I don't need hard numbers, but a range would be great.

Lets make some assumptions:

Lets say the car was based on a longhood 911T, and was a bare chassis restoration. Rust free, as period-correct as can be, and with a hot-rod engine. (May or may not be built to RSR specs. )

Think BBII, SoCal70RSR's car, or DW SD's car.

I know you're a do-it-yourselfer, but lets assume you can afford it, and are willing to pay to just pick it out and drive it off the lot.

How much?

My inclination is $40-$75k, depending on the specs, but maybe I'm low or high.

I think I can track down how much a restored car would be, from the Excellence charts if they are accurate.

Thanks...

You're asking me? $25K for a good RS or RSR clone, built from a lognose 911T.

[LeeH]

I'd be interested to hear opinions on the perceived value of my car:
What's my 1972 911T 3.0L worth?
Not an RS, but a decent narrow bodied hot-rod.

[Larry_Ratcliff]

Originally Posted by LeeH

I'd be interested to hear opinions on the perceived value of my car:
What's my 1972 911T 3.0L worth?
Not an RS, but a decent narrow bodied hot-rod.

With a bent title I would say around 12K. Without I would have said around 15.

[Ferraripete]

Originally Posted by SoCal70RSR

Here's a nice example on ebay that emcompasses a lot of what's being discussed here:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsche-911-911-1973-PORSCHE-911-DREAM-CAR_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ10156QQihZ007QQitem Z170193142539QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Lots of goodies... and I would almost be willing to bet, if anyone on this forum were to buy it, they'd still find themselves personalising the car, adding another $5K - $10K after the purchase.

for what it's worth...the car needs nothing. there is simply NOTHING to be done and the level of build quality is befitting of winston/nextel/sprint cup car...because the builder/owner was a senior race car fabricator for the wood brothers-st motorsports.

it is the best rs build i have ever seen. the crazy parts list is only half of the story...the car is tremendous!

and btw...it is in san diego right this minute! you should see it!!

pcb

[Larry_Ratcliff]

Originally Posted by Ferraripete

for what it's worth...the car needs nothing. there is simply NOTHING to be done and the level of build quality is befitting of winston/nextel/sprint cup car...because the builder/owner was a senior race car fabricator for the wood brothers-st motorsports.

it is the best rs build i have ever seen. the crazy parts list is only half of the story...the car is tremendous!

and btw...it is in san diego right this minute! you should see it!!

pcb

It looks like a super sweet car. I bet there is a ton invested and I would hope the reserve is far north of 35K.

However, I do agree with some of the previous posts. The best way to make a little money building rs or rsr clones is to start with a LOT of money . Building one is an act of passion and is done to serve a very personalized need.

The intent of the build usually is to never sell. I dont think when I built my car I could have done it any other way other than the specific way I wanted. Shoot I gathered up parts for years before the actual build.

[rennch]

Originally Posted by EarlySport

I think there may be a market. Owning and having owned and built a few 911's now, I have some pretty clear opinions on them.

I think if you try and build a semi-authentic clone you will lose money. All those NOS and rare parts cost a lot of money and take forever to source. In my opinion those parts though do nothing for the driving experience, and I think the people that will buy these turn-key cars are going to buy them to drive.

I own a 100% stock 1969 911E and quite honestly I think it's crap to drive. It has minimal power ( any modern family car will kill it in a straight line ). It doesn't really handle either on it's stock suspension and skinny tyres. ( again - relative to any modern car ). I enjoy taking it out for a very occasional drive and appreciate the 'period' experience and a leisurely cruise, but for anything else I love my hot rod 911's. My RS replica has a ton more power ( 3 litre with mods ), handles ( lots of suspension mods ) and has modern seats, bigger tyres, etc. It still gives me the raw early 911 experience, but can hold it's own from the stop light or on a twisty road with modern machinery.

At some point I'll get tired of the time and effort required to build these cars, and might be shopping for a cool early 911 to DRIVE, and so a stylish RSR / RS replica would be my choice. And I KNOW what it costs to build one, and therefore will be realistic in my pricing expectation.

And the other thing - the cars Emptyo mentioned as his examples will never sell for $35K ( unless the owners have a sudden fit of madness and desperate financial crisis ) so for someone else to say they wouldn't buy any of them for more than $35K is kinda mute. Fact is if you want a car like these it's going to cost $100K+ to build with a good shop, maybe $75K to DIY, then the low end will be set by those in most financial need to sell their car quickly. So let's all agree now not to sell our cars cheap OK ? :-)

Great Post....

[Ferraripete]

Originally Posted by emptyo

Great Post....

+2 a very good post!

[Ferraripete]

Originally Posted by Larry Ratcliff

It looks like a super sweet car. I bet there is a ton invested and I would hope the reserve is far north of 35K.

However, I do agree with some of the previous posts. The best way to make a little money building rs or rsr clones is to start with a LOT of money . Building one is an act of passion and is done to serve a very personalized need.

The intent of the build usually is to never sell. I dont think when I built my car I could have done it any other way other than the specific way I wanted. Shoot I gathered up parts for years before the actual build.

the car belongs to a very good friend of mine and while i HATE to see him sell, i hope it goes to an owner that will appreciate the passion/blood/sweat/and cubic dollars that went into the build!!

yes...well north of $35k if not for my too many cars and too little time to enjoy, the car would be mine!

it is simply not duplicable at that level for less than $100k.

[aigel]

I think while the early cars are classics, the RSR is a fashion at it's height currently. Or even past it. That will play into selling it in the future. As others have stated, you'd do better with an original car. In summary I have to say, that if you have to ask about resale, you may not want to be in this hobby.

George

[aigel]

Originally Posted by Ferraripete

it is simply not duplicable at that level for less than $100k.

Sure. But as others have pointed out, if you blow 50k+, you'll want to build it YOUR way. I look at other's cars and like what they did, but none of them are exactly like I would want it. Yes, all very theoretical for me.

George

[SoCal70RSR]

Originally Posted by Ferraripete

for what it's worth...the car needs nothing. there is simply NOTHING to be done and the level of build quality is befitting of winston/nextel/sprint cup car...because the builder/owner was a senior race car fabricator for the wood brothers-st motorsports.

it is the best rs build i have ever seen. the crazy parts list is only half of the story...the car is tremendous!

and btw...it is in san diego right this minute! you should see it!!

pcb

I appreciate the invite to go check it out, if I were in the market I would seriously take you up on it. By the looks of it and the long list of parts it's a well put together hot-rod 911. The owner would probably call it "perfect", and please bear with me here, and I certainly mean no offense, most of the Do It Yourselfer's in this forum would want to go through it an personalize the car to their taste. And depending on their preference, could end up spending some major dough... for example, if the new owner wanted to install different seats, pole positions($2K), or GT3 seats ($3K), or period recaro sport seats in the $4K - $7K range and so on... Nothing that wouldn't apply to any other car, just the nature of the DIY crowd.

[Ferraripete]

Originally Posted by SoCal70RSR

I appreciate the invite to go check it out, if I were in the market I would seriously take you up on it. By the looks of it and the long list of parts it's a well put together hot-rod 911. The owner would probably call it "perfect", and please bear with me here, and I certainly mean no offense, most of the Do It Yourselfer's in this forum would want to go through it an personalize the car to their taste. And depending on their preference, could end up spending some major dough... for example, if the new owner wanted to install different seats, pole positions($2K), or GT3 seats ($3K), or period recaro sport seats in the $4K - $7K range and so on... Nothing that wouldn't apply to any other car, just the nature of the DIY crowd.

i see your point. no offense taken...i am just a car guy and really love to see when a build goes to such high levels! these lightweight hot rods are pretty cool machines and i can really see the value proposition.

[rennch]

So, this thread has taken a great life of it's own. My question was long since answered, but I've really appreciated the banter and the insight from all of you. I think it also gives some of us that are actually building cars (or have built) an idea of what they are worth, at least to a Pelicanite?

[ttweed]

This fellow has been advertising for a few months in our PCA-SDR newsletter, offering to build replicas. http://www.gtmotorsport.net/

EARLY 911 REPLICAS / DREAMS Own the vintage Porsche you’ve always dreamed of owning for as little as $29,900 (less if you supply the donor car). How about a ’73 911RS or RSR? Maybe a ’71 911ST in Brumos trim. I specialize in back-dating ’78 to ’92 911s. Give me a call to discuss your budget and your vision. Call Larry at GT Motorsport USA. Call me directly at 858.549.2911 or email me at larry@gtmotorsport.net.


No affiliation, I don't know the guy, but it seems like he has had the same idea as the buddy of emptyo is contemplating.

TT

[rfn026]

Someone hit it just right. We may be at the peak of the RSR market. In the last few years guys hav been moving from 962s to RSRs. An RSR is just so much cheaper to run. These guys drove up the price of real RSRs. The clones followed along.

We now have the Euro driving up 911 prices. It's almost a perfect market for the RSR clones. I know you can't time the market - but. When people start thinking they can make money cloning RSRs we may be at the top of the curve.

This is going to get very interesting.

Richard Newton

Ultimate Garage Handbook

Wheel and Tire Performance Handbook

[eimkeith]

Hey - you reading our confidential internal emails?

BTW, the chassis will still be far from gravy, unless you can figure out how to pay very little for labor and somehow get relatively unskilled personnel to produce quality work. It just doesn't happen.

I understand your perspective, after you've done some work on your personal car, but in a real shop environment, you almost lose your a$$ bringing quality work to the public. This is simply not the area to make profit from a relatively small group of clients. You have to do simpler, far more mundane, cheaper, multiple service type jobs to make a decent living. Anything that requires time and training to produce quality, especially if it cannot be molded and churned out in multpiles, is the opposite of profitable. In fact, if we didn't have a service business, (as well as any of the shops that build full on cars) we simply could not afford to do complete builds. There are always a few clients that can afford to pay fairly for quality work with some liability protection included, but not enough to sustain each year's worth of overhead.

Something to consider (and no one ever seems to) is that if this stuff is so easy, anyone could do it. If anyone can do it, there is no business in it. Instead, what you end up with is everyone thinking they can do it and not being significantly educated to assess really good quality. That's fine for the hobbyist, and can produce some really fun, satisfying cars for personal use. When you try to sell to the public, however, it needs to be right. And extremely fine quality. And good design. And safe. And you need to eat any errors, and absorb any learning time. And get paid at the end of the week.

How much income do you require to live comfortably on? How about those working with you? How much inventory do you need to keep on hand? How much does it cost to ship vehicles? How much does the stripping company want for their services? How much does equipment purchase and maintenance cost? How about ongoing education in your field of expertise? Do you need to be compensated for the research and deliberation time? How about the estimating and client conferencing time? How much space is required to warehouse multiple projects? How much does that cost?

I can tell you that building spec clones for profit is not a new concept. I can also tell you that Autofarm's pricing isn't excessive from this side of the counter. How many AutoFarms can this enthusiast pool support? How many actual customers feel that this industry's pricing is fair and well-supported? I mean, you can't even sell a well-built clone for 50K without some sort of pedigree, right? How many do you think can be produced every year to sell at 45K? Out of that profit, how many staffmembers can be supported? Out of that number of staffmembers, how many cars can be produced in a quality manner for 45K?

Another consideration: selling old junk off of old cars to this small market doesn't net much, either. I mean, when you buy something, it needs to be relatively useable and in good condition if you are expected to pay any significant sum for it, right? No one is going to purchase nice condition driver 911s and break them up to provide raw material for a chassis business to support the old 911 market. You're working with old, non-restorable, or abandoned project cars. Not a lot to sell off of those. You are lucky to get enough off of the old crap that comes off ot the chassis to cover your labor totally stripping the car - much less the time to advertise, sell, and ship the junk. Then, put the car on your Cellette (how much did that cost? - you can't sell refurbished chassis that aren't straight), put a floorpan in it (wait, those don't fit exactly right?!?), put a front pan in it, repair rust in the window sills frnt and rear, AND correct all the terrible repairs from the late 70's and 80's. and you've got 3 weeks in the car. 3x45=135 hours. Know anyone that wants to work for 15/hr. that you can trust to do a GOOD job? Ok, so he gets 2025.00. Add that to the 2K you got out of selling off the junk (you got lucky) plus the 6K purchase price of the car and you're in for ten without parts that you used in the repair. Add the stripping, transport to and from, the e-coating, and the racking (you will have more than one in inventory, because Keith refused the '70 911T and is waiting for a '72) - you are close to the stripper and coater (really?) so that is only 3K, so now you are in to the chassis for 13.5K. Add your brick and mortar overhead and your are at 17K.

I don't know about you, but I want 20/hr. for my time, even though most days I enjoy this stuff., so for the past 3 weeks, I'm getting 2700.00 You are getting paid to answer questions, keep your one-man staff from goofing off, keep sheetmetal stocked before it is needed, attempt to sell the junk, attempt to sell the chassis in question, and locate and make a deal on the next one to keep them in queue.) So you have to sell that perfect chassis for 20K to do the next one without debt from the first. Well, I want to make some profit, so I'm marking it up to at least 23K - I mean, the welder has problems sometimes, I can't stand the stripper, so I'm going to buy a sandblaster, etc.

So you've got a good starting point to sell to the public for 23-25K, which of course seems really expensive. I mean, 25K for a chassis? You can't even DRIVE IT!!!

Better to treat this as a loss leader for your service business, because you really like to do this type of work, it makes you feel good about yourself, and it's cool. Plus, you are super-talented and critical and are appropriate for this kind of thing.

Originally Posted by emptyo

Agreed. I think those were built for people's personal tastes, as opposed to what Autofarm is doing. Again, I think it just has to do with efficiency in the shop...if you have a system and process for each car.

I'll tell you what would be cool though...finding early tubs, repairing them, zinc-coating them, then selling them to folks for restoration for like 12k. You could do stock or flared versions, or even backdated versions. Sell the rest of the parts off the car for a profit, and the price of the chassis being sold is gravy.

Who's in?

[eimkeith]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Sounds like what Grady has been talking about. He really thinks that Porsche needs to restamp longnose tubs like Chevy is doing with the Camaro. He was thinking people would pay $10-12k for just the tubs if they had all the modern advances in alloys, rustproofing, and strengthening. I think it's a great idea. Too bad Porsche doesn't seem too interested in the idea...

That is the key - to make it work, dollar-wise, they have to be stamped new - repairson tubs needing repairs doesn't really work for 12K.

of course, to tool up to restamp requires a HUGE investment. You need to make an sell LOTS of units.

[Macroni]

Reality check anyone......

[CanAmThunder]

I have not read this whole thread so not sure if this has been addressed, but a good RSR clone "race car" for HSR is in the 125,000 range for a brand new car . That price is for a race car with a 3.0 that is capable of running at the front of the pack and brand new. It happens to look like an RSR. It is a nice race car and that is what they cost new and then when they are used and ready to be refreshed, they fall down to 75,000 or so.