How much would you pay for an RSR clone?

[SoCal70RSR]

A good business plan would probably deter any fresh blood from the replica/clone Porsche business. Besides, there's enough shops already that can handle the task and have the history and reputation to back it up. If you shop for cheap, you'll get cheap... inexpensive is typically an illusion. If you want to save money in labor, do it yourself, but if you want to save money in tools, time and possibly higher quality work all around, let a reputable shop do it. But then... we're right back where we started - a well built car, specially one tailored to your liking, is not cheap.

[porschenut]

To Keith's points, let's add general business insurance, liability insurance, insurance on inventory, machinery, tools, and client projects. Legal fees, bookkeeping costs, startup costs, building or rent deposits, computers and software, utilities, billing, collection (!), website design and maintenance, and (horrors!) income tax. And warranty work. And....I'm sure there's more.

[eimkeith]

Originally Posted by Luke Marano Jr

Reality check anyone......

did I go off on a tangent?

[Macroni]

Originally Posted by eimkeith

did I go off on a tangent?

Not to me. This is a great thread. I still hold, most of the cars we admire were built based upon an individual's passion for the build vs return on the investment.


Porschenut you forgot Health Insurance!

[DW SD]

It is definitely easy for the guy in his garage to forget all of the costs of doing business. I did.

As has already been pointed out, the DIY crowd is often (usually) a different audience than the write - a - check - for - a - custom - vehicle crowd.

It seems the time the two overlap is when vehicles go up for sale (as Luke pointed out). That can certainly lead to some confusion about what the market would pay for the vehicles.

Doug

[rennch]

Originally Posted by eimkeith

Hey - you reading our confidential internal emails?

BTW, the chassis will still be far from gravy, unless you can figure out how to pay very little for labor and somehow get relatively unskilled personnel to produce quality work. It just doesn't happen....(clipped to make sure the internet doesn't run out of room...)

Keith...awesome post! I think this whole *thread* has gone off on a tangent, and I am finding it really interesting how discouraging almost everybody has been about starting a new Porsche-related clone business, when I didn't even say that was the plan. I simply asked what the worth of these cars was on the open market. That said, I have really loved where this is gone...it's been quite the hot Pelican topic for a couple of days.

The truth to the matter is...the car building portion of this idea is just a means to an end. There are about 5 revenue streams that are related to it, and it's on a much, much, much smaller scale than you just iterated. The chassis thing was just me thinking out loud. Still...I can get a chassis stripped for $500 here, and acid dipped and zinc coated for another $500 or so....so on a smaller scale it might be doable.

I've always got a few ideas brewing in my head, and some of you might be hearing from me about a partnership. More to come....

[Jack Olsen]

This thread got started on a specific topic that I didn't feel I had much to contribute to. Speaking personally, the market value of my own RSR-inspired car is a non-issue for me. The car wasn't built with resale in mind -- it's not for sale, and if I can help it, it won't ever be for sale. I look at the money I've put into BB1/BB2 in the same way I'd look at the money we spend on our children. It's not a for-profit venture and (until they're no longer children, at least) we don't have much interest in unloading the project on someone else.

But that's me. Crashes and periodic upgrades notwithstanding, I'm a one-car-for-life man.



The question of there being a market for RSRs in general is something else, and a lot of the posts here have brought up interesting points. To make sense of things, I think you need to break things down into separate questions:

Is the appetite for RSRs a passing fad or is it here to stay?

This is really hard to say. Thos of us who post here on Pelican represent a very particular slice of the car-buying community -- a small group relative to used-911-buyers as a whole. And even so, there are those around here who wouldn't agree the Gemballa-kit cars or the slantnoses are at the low-end of their popularity curve. Fashions will always come and go, and where some 911 variants get one day in the sun, others prove durable enough to get rediscovered by a second wave of enthusiasts. The RS and RSR have passed this test. But that doesn't mean that the RSR will continue to enjoy its current levels of popularity. The skyrocketing values of the pre-1974 911 is already changing things. The long-hood cars are going to keep changing from being an enthusiast's model to -- like the 356 -- more of a fetish model. By this I mean the cars in their original form are going to be valued more and more because of their unique appearance, their particular (and foremost) place in the 911 family, and their scarcity. The early cars used to be notable for being the lightest and 'most pure' iteration of the 911 design. As such, they made great race cars and hot rods. But I think this is going to change as their value as a collectible starts to outstrip the value of their actual chassis virtues. We're going to see more painstaking restorations and fewer race-purpose and R-Gruppe-style versions. It's just going to get too expensive.

So will backdated examples based on 1974-89 models fill the void? Will fiberglass long-hood reproductions like you see for 550s and 356s become popular? Maybe. But maybe not. It's hard to say if the appetite for reproductions of this particular model will be as strong once the more-mildly hot-rodded and modified originals lose popularity. Lots of non-Porsche people ooh and ah at a replica of a 356 Speedster or 550 without knowing anything about Porsche at all. Could the same be said about the RSR? Probably not.

All that said, I'm really not all that familiar with what happened in the 356 market when values started to shoot to the stratosphere -- did modified examples become less popular?

My other question:

What are we talking about when we say 'RSR?'

I think that there are really three different categories here, and they don't have all that much in common with each other. First, and most significantly, is what I'd call a 'Cosmetic RSR.' This means a 911 with an RSR body kit on it. If there's a 12K-120K value range for the cars we're talking about, then this is what you're going to see in the 12K-20K range. It's also the thing there's probably the biggest market for, in spite of the limited appeal it would have to most of the enthusiasts who come to the Pelican BBS. It can be made for the cost of some fiberglass and a paint job. And if I were a not-very-ethical businessman, it's the car I'd want to crank out, turning collision and rust victims into shiny new widebody cars with long hoods, huge spacers, no PPI allowed and no warranty whatsoever. I'd probably need to keep my total costs under 10K per car, and I don't know that I'd be looking at myself in the mirror and feeling all that great about what I see. I'd probably need to change my email address every few years and keep a good lawyer's number in my wallet.

There is a market for those kind of cars. It's not here on Pelican, but it's out there -- guys who have come into a little bit of money and want to drive an awesome looking car.

Second category? The period-correct restoration. This is the car that has as many factory-correct details in it, in spite of having no actual provenance (is that spelled right) as an actual historic artifact. This category would be at the high end of the 12K-120K spectrum, and it's hard to imagine building these cars for less than 100K if you're going to be particular about the period-correctness of the motor and other race-program-specific parts. These cars are beautiful to look at and inspiring when they rev their motors. I can't for the life of me see a business model for making them outside of what's being done by companies like Gunnar Racing. The market for these is small -- rich guys who want to make a perfect copy of a very particular historical artifact.

The third category also occupies the high end of the $12K-120K value scale. It's the front-of-the-pack race cars. This group is shaped by sanctioning bodies and their classification rules, and it squeezes a lot of money out of its buyers as they balance period-correctness with rules compliance and all the suspension and drivetrain components that have been improved over the years. It's hard to imagine building a one-size-fits-all model for this segment, to my mind, and I would guess that the successful business model for this kind of car is in parts supply -- Smart Racing and companies like that.

So based on my three-category model, I'd say that the general value of an RSR clone is 12K-20K, which is to say it's the cosmetic conversion, with performance-oriented parts skewing prices toward the high end of that spectrum -- maybe 25K -- and kit-and-paint nightmares at the low end. But it's probably safe to say that you'll need to spend 50K to produce the easy-to-sell-for-25K version.

Where an I going with all of this? Well, it's worth pointing out that a lot of the RSR clones you see on Pelican don't really fit snugly into any of these three categories. My car was built to do well in racing, but it's not a purpose-built racer. And of course 3.2s and 3.6s are not period-correct motors at all.

I'd say the cars we see here are anomalies from a market-wide perspective. I don't know what my car cost to build (messy question, since I crashed and rebuilt it with the old drivetrain and a new body), but I've gotten on-the-spot offers that were probably more than it would cost to build my car. Do those offers mean identical copies my car could be built and sold at that price? No. Not unless the guy making that offer could be counted on to want multiple copies at the same price. The numbers of quality-built RSR replicas (cars with the 'go' to match the 'show') are so small that you can't really generalize about any market for them at all, I think. There aren't too many guys who want an over-25K RSR in the first place. I just don't see enough data to even estimate a market for them because it's a very, very small market.

That's my long-winded two cents. Put more simply, I agree with eimkeith and others that this is a great type of venture to lose money on because you love it and because you hope it will generate profit in other parts of your broader business. Then again, Michael might be looking at simply filling holes in the parts/chassis marketplace, which could end up being profitable.

[eimkeith]

[rennch]

Another great post Jack. In fact, I was going to give you some ***** for finding a way to shoehorn a picture of BBII in there, but how can I? It's rad.

[eimkeith]

at risk of making myself sick of hearing myself, I'd add a couple of things to Jack's post:

First, I feel that cars like Jack's and Matteo's and ERH's are a fourth category - the resto-rod end of the spectrum. Too mild and ornate to be a racecar, too uncomfortable and track-oriented to be a typical commuter (although this is what most of us in this community want for our driver), too period-detailed to be inexpensive. These are hot rod 911's that resemble vintage muscle. Extremely cool, with a looser collar than a correct replica. These cars prefer modern power. The business for these cars is actually greater (in volume) than the other 2 categories (I'm ignoring the crash-repair flarejob segment)

There is probably no question that the more period-correct details the better the return will be. The '73 RSR is kind of a universally accepted standard that everyone seems to agree upon. You may disagree with decisions the original builder made that deviate from this standard, but correctness is usually acceptable for the higher resale numbers, it seems.

(although I'm goofy - I think everything has inherently more value when you graft a '72 oil system onto it)

Second, What Jack describes in the first group is typically what I'm finding on all these early flared cars on ebay - it seems that that business model has been around for a Looooong time in this industry, lol...

[drystack]

These have been great posts. Like many if you, I started my search looking for a car that "looked right". I thought I found the right one 3 times so far, but for various reasons its hasn't worked out yet.

What I have decided is that I really don't want a $50,000 old car anymore. They're nice looking and sound cool, but not for me at this time. For that kind of cash I've shifted my focus (and budget unfortunately) to something newer and a little more exclusive, which makes me wonder----if you had the choice between a $100000 RSR clone and a 997 GT3 which would you take? No trying to hijack, just get a perspective.

[rennch]

I'd take an RSR Clone and a 1997 993 TT, personally. If I had $100k to spend, that is.

[911teo]

Originally Posted by drystack

What I have decided is that I really don't want a $50,000 old car anymore. They're nice looking and sound cool, but not for me at this time. For that kind of cash I've shifted my focus (and budget unfortunately) to something newer and a little more exclusive, which makes me wonder----if you had the choice between a $100000 RSR clone and a 997 GT3 which would you take? No trying to hijack, just get a perspective.

Again I think this is the wrong crowd to ask such a question. In the real world Porsche can sell tens of thousands of 997 GT3 at $100k plus.

But that is where the beauty of an RSR clone with the show and the go. It's the uber exclusivity, the knowledge you have a car that is unique, that combine the Porsche heritage with your own interpretation.

And the RSR clone is always a work in progress. You never pick it up and it's just 100% right. You embark on a long project with an idea, a vision but sometimes the end result is different that what you had in mind. So you go back and try different solutions and upgrades.

The RSR clone is a car that begs to be tampered with. It begs for you to work on it and try different things.... I do not see very many people doing that to a GT3.

Back to the original question for me the answer was really easy....

[SoCal70RSR]

Originally Posted by drystack

What I have decided is that I really don't want a $50,000 old car anymore.

I think you meant to say "$50,000 vintage car".... at $50K, you should have a darn brand new car

[Macroni]

what was emptyo's proposition again?

[Matt Monson]

Interesting commentary today while I was too busy working to even read it all let apply. I am going to go against the grain here and continue in the vein of the idea that if configured properly, doing something like this as a business could absolutely work and be successful to boot. However, the major caveat here is a point that has been brought up multiple times; the potential buyer for this product would NOT be a core Porsche enthusiast. They would likely not be a Pelican member and they probably have never owned a 911 before.

That said, if I were to attempt such an endeavor, I would model it more on the kit car market. I would look to the kind of thing that Factory Five is currently doing with the GTM kit car. Actually, let me rewind for a minute so you understnad a little bit more the nature of my perspective.

I know that I am pretty new to this community based on join date and post count, However, I have spent the last 4 years of my life in a very specialized corner of the Porsche market. I sell Porsche gears, tranny components and rebuilt trannies for a living. Because of Ultima, Factory Five, the Gt40 kit, etc. my market niche has changed substantially in the last 24 months. These days, I talk to on average 1 kit car owner for every 4 or 5 Porsche owners or shops that I talk to.

That said, I head back to my Factory Five example. When those guys first put that kit together, they marketed it as a DIY kit that costs $20,000 and when coupled with a wrecked Corvette and a variant of Porsche Getrag transaxle, you could put together a "supercar" for $40-50k depending on personal florishes. Over time, this has evolved. There's a large percentage of these guys who are spending $60-80K on these cars and they don't bat an eye when I quote them a $15-$20k GT3 transmission will several custom gears, special oiling, cryo treatment, rem treatment, etc. etc. It's also gotten to the point where I am getting calls from shops that are building these cars (these are generally the same shops that have made a name for themselves building Factory Five's Cobra kit). I have quizzed them a bit, and the shops that deliver turnkey cars are generally selling them in the $80-100k range.

Basically, what I am getting at here is that there's a range of owners. There's the DIY guy who will build his own kit. Then there's the artisan DIY guy who will build a concour or track quality kit. And then there's the rich guy who will just pay to get one of these cars. I personally see no reason why something similar wouldn't work with an RSR replica. I disagree with Jack about the potential popularity of this. I think an RSR kit could exceed the popularity of the Speedster replicars.

There's a whole generation of us who are just coming into our real earning curves who grew up on these cars. I was born in 1971 and grew up in the Bay Area. I spent my teen years in the mid 80's spending weekends hanging out in the pits of the vintage races with my best friend who's father had an old Ferrari Daytona. It was always the conflict among us because I was always drawn to the old 911's and 930's. It's guys like me who are the next wave here. Many of my generation will not have a chance to own a true early 911 because they are going the way of the 356 pricewise and in another 5-10 years when they are in their mid 40's many of them will prefer to buy a kit that has all kinds of modern updates and some real power and handling versus a creaky old 1970 911T for $40k no matter how nice it looks. A good percentage will settle for the fake one they can beat on like they stole it.

So, what would I do if I were to try and put together a kit like this? I'd focus on a couple standardized engine and tranny packages along with suspension, brakes, body and trim components that are part of it. This would include an all new parts front clip for welding on to convert to long nose as well as hood. This would be an option because I would have a longnose '73 kit and a shortnose '74 IROC kit. Then I would specify that the buyer will need to go find themselves a 1974-1993 chassis to build it on. Whether that is an 'S' title, or a car with a blown motor, or a tired driver will be up to them. But what they choose with respect to year is what dictates their engine and tranny options. And lastly, to keep your engine and tranny inventory going, you do a core exchange program just like any other engine and tranny shop in the industry.

The key here is that you've removed the labor of building the car. That's the buyer's problem. If they don't want to build it, they'll find an assembler that will do it. And you get to mostly standardize your business and have the things you do that do require labor be things that historically have shown that you can make money on them; engines and trannies. And this leaves room for people to personalize as well. You sell the package with some Brembo brake set up. If they want 930 brakes for the right look, they go out and find them and sell their Brembos on Ebay. I think you get the point...

[911teo]

Matt

the biggest problem here is that RSR cannot come in kit format. You are looking at at least $20k of investment in a tub before you can even start purchasing parts....

Can you build these cars and make a profit? Possible. But lets look at the numbers....

Say you can streamline all your costs and squeeeze the suppliers and have a final build cost for a good RSR clone (new suspensions, new paint, G50, 3.6 stock, nice interior) for $40-45k (BTW I think this is way too low given that these days the motor+tranny alone will set you back $15k).

So now you need to sell it.... Let's mark it up $20k from cost. So you have a very very nice RSR clone for $60-65k.

How many are you going to sell per year? How many can you build per year? 4-6? So you have the potential profit of $80-120k.

Hire a helper and the profit goes down.... get insurance and the profit goes down... replace a lift/gun/welder/ and the profit goes down...

So even if you could sell 8 car a per year (I am not even getting into how you need to be set up to build 8 cars per year...) the margins are so thin that it makes the business not attractive from an investment point of view.

I just looked at it with an investor's mind. If you have an empy shop, paying already 3 assistants and no business then possibly building a clone is a nice way to stay busy and turning a loss into a positive....

[88911coupe]

What about someone like Superformance in South Africa taking on something like this? I guess the issue would be they build complete cars, sans engine IIRC, and we are talking about adding modifications to an existing tub, which could be of several variations...ok, I guess I talked myself out of that.
There sure as heck seems to be a market for Cobras, but again...whole cars.

[Matt Monson]

Matteo,
Read my comments again. I am not talking about building a kit. I am talking about selling a kit. There's a huge difference there. Basically, I am suggesting something along the lines of what Autofarm offers with one major change to the formula; the owner puts it together themselves.

However, it also wouldn't be a "shadetree" business. To do something like what I outline above would require upwards of a million dollar investment up front. You'd need to negotiate agreements with a number of key vendors in advance and place your own orders of a couple dozen units of each major piece of the kit that you would then need to warehouse. You would also need to have a couple of experienced techs lined up to rebuild the engines and transmissions. In short, it wouldn't be cheap to get it off it's feet. And then it might just fall flat on it's face and fail miserably. But it does fall under that old adage of, "It takes money to make money." and you'd need some deep pocket investors to back you and give you the 2 years it would take to see if it really could catch on and turn a profit. However, if you could sell 25 kits at $25,000 that's 1/2 a million a year in gross sales with probably 20-25% margins, which may be enough to get an investor or two on the hook.

It's really only gutt feeling and opinion on everyone's part. The only way to really find out would be to write a real business plan, model it, and start pitching it to people. Personallly, it's not something I am going to do. I've got my hands full with my own little business endeavor these days...

[911teo]

Sorry I misreead your post.

But let's clear some confusion about Autofarm. They are exactly like TRE, Zuffenhaus and other shops here. They have just standardized a little what they offer....

I spoke at lenght with Paul Stevens... you can mix and match and have anything you want done to your car. Their website just gives you an idea.

I am sure if you talk to Keith at Zuffenhaus or Dave at TRE they would very easily give you a bull park figure for the 3 "kits" Autofarm offers in a very short period of time...

So I am not really understanding what you are suggesting that is different.

To sell the kit you have to source the parts. Which means find the tub, treat it, reinforce it etc.
Then all the bits and pieces that are needed from the ground up.... I do not necessarily believe that Elephant Racing would give you a big discount because you are buying 10 camber plates per year.

So I don't really see how you can sell a kit for $25k when the parts alone are worth $20-30k.

If I misunderstood you again please accept my apologies... I will read it again....