Need help getting 911SC started after replaceing a fuel line

[bottomfish]

I need help because I am at wits end. I have a '83 - 911SC which I was using as a daily driver for a few weeks now. Earlier this week when leaving work I noticed a fuel leak type smell. While the engine was running I opened the engine lid and saw a drip from the fuel line going from the fuel dist. to the warm up reg., when I touched it the line completly broke and fuel went all over the place. I rushed and shut off the engine. Today the new fuel line arrived and I installed it with out issue. I also replaced the vacum line on the warm up reg which goes to the throttle body. Now the car wont start unless I take the air cleaner off and push up on the plate. If released the car dies. I have tried everything I could think of with out using any tools. Any help or ideas would be appriciated.

Cheers

[Jim Sims]

Did you fully purge the injection system of air? Do this by turning the ignition switch to on (without the engine running) then lifting the plate for several seconds (say 7 to 10). The fuel pump should come on and as the system fills and purges with fuel you'll hear the fuel pump whine tone change and you'll feel the plate "stiffen." Do not hold the plate up longer as you can fill the cylinders with fuel causing engine "hydrolock" and fuel dilution of the oil. If the car doesn't then start, check to see if you've knocked off any hoses or connectors in the process of installing the new components.

[bottomfish]

At first I just turned the key and waited a little bit, like 30-40 sec. I tried starting up and the engine would turn but never fire up. I took off the air cleaner and filer and pushed on the plate and it make a sound. Same technique as if there was vaporlock. The car would try starting with a quick acceleration and die. I tried this a few times but same outcome. I did get it running but I had to keep pushing on the plate, once I let the plate go the engine shuts off. I did lossen the fuel hose I replaced and fuel did come out. I tightened it back up and tried again, now the engine was up to temp but unless i push the plate up the engine wont start. I adjusted the idle screw but nothing. I checked the relays and they all clicked, fuses are also good. What am I overlooking? Thanks

BTW here is a pic

[Jim Sims]

If your car's fuel pump wiring is in the original condition, just turning on the key does nothing as the fuel pump shouldn't run unless the engine is turning over (via the starter) or actually running. Follow the procedure I described to purge the air out of the fuel injection system. Then try starting the car. If that doesn't work look to see if you've inadvertently disconnected something.

[bottomfish]

Still no luck. I did push the plte in the air box for 7-10 sec and it made a sound. I then tried to start and the engine turned over fine, a cloud of white smoke can from the tail pipe, the engine started for a quick sec and stopped. I continued tring and was able to ge it running while pumping the accelerator pedal. If I stopped the car turns off. I checked all the connections in the area of the repair but no luck. Its almost like there is no fuel, I did notice that when I flooded the system and tried starting, momentary start I heard a louder than normal sucking sound (sounded like air).

BTW, if I need to get this towed, do I need a flat bed?

Thanks

[dtw]

I had a similar problem when I was resurrecting my Targa last year. Major fuel system overhaul. Got the car running, all was well, did the purge as Jim Sims described above. Then I had to reach behind the CIS and mess with the supply line for some reason, just like you. After I got it replaced, the car would not start. Purge...fire and die. Fire and die. Fire and die. Pulling my hair out. Then I groped around behind the CIS again since that was the only area I had touched since the car stopped firing. Sure enough, my hands found a vacuum line that I had knocked loose while working on the fuel line. Got it secured and the car was fine. Maybe check back there for something similar? Good luck.

If you get it towed, no, you don't need a rollback, unless you prefer it. It can be a good idea if you have a deep spoiler and/or your car is very lowered.

[jwernquist]

I too had a similar incident, however in my case when the fuel line broke it more or less allowed particles to be sucked into the line and into the fuel distributor. Had the distributor removed dismantled and cleaned. Put it back on and everything was ok. This is a longshot, however I would consider your advice here, while you were back there you might have bumped something. Check your vacuum lines check your electrical connections. I think you will find a simple solution to this.

Good Luck
JW

[bottomfish]

Update***

Ok, I finally gave up and had the car towed to "Vertex" a local Porsche service shop in Miami. They ran through some diagnostics and called me stating that the fuel pump is dead (Making lots of noise), gas tank is rusted and the ignition module was bad (np spark at the coil) which was they had rebuilt not too long ago. There may be more but they can't tell me yet. The car was running fine until I replaced the hose.

They said the only way to warranty the new fuel pump was to replace the gas tank. They now have my lugnuts in a vise. They are over 2000 in repairs. Should I keep going and get it all done? Is the car worth it? I have a buddie that says I should part out the car. What do you guys think? Is it a money pit or am I just blinding myself?

[richde]

So it was running fine, change the line and then everything from the gas tank to the engine compartment along with the ignition went bad?

Does that sound right to you?

[jwernquist]

I have a tough time believing all that wrong all at once, Gas tanks get rusty fuel pumps go bad and so do ICU's but all at once? 2000$ is alot to pay for those repairs my reasoning as follows:

Some tanks can be saved, however some cannot. All the stuff they mentioned is very easy DIY.
The Ignition module is a 5 minute replacement and fuel pump is easy, the tank is not so easy.

You can salvage a rusty tank it just depends on how rusty. I had a chance to buy a new tank a while back for my 73 instead i refurb'd it and 6 months down the line I still had issues. If yours isnt leaking you can send it off to have it boiled then re-sealed and your rust problem should be eliminated for some time. Good cleaning and sealing are key.

Personally I would do it all myself. 2000$ is alot for those repairs,

Gas Tank - Reseal 250$ 400$ Professionally done
Fuel Pump - 250$ - an Hour
Ignition Control Unit, 100$ -250$ Used time an Hour

At the most your looking at around 900$ if you do it yourself on the Fuel Pump and ICU, 400$ is paying someone to clean and reseal the tank which is easy to remove and to put back in.

Is 1100$ worth it to you to have the shop do the work?

Just a thought!

JW

[Gunter]

At some point these old 911's will cost money; it's not unusual to spend 2k.
In fact, most people spend more in parts/maintenance than the original purchase price.
These 911's require input. A Civic would be a better daily driver.
Depending on condition, the tank can be re-coated from the inside or you can buy a good used one.
A new pump is fine. Make sure that they also install a new check-valve with the pump.
The 6-pin Bosch CDI module was rebuild, it should still be under warranty?
If the PP showed a good overall condition including good numbers on Compression/Leakdown, it's up to you if you want to keep it and spend the money.

[dtw]

It may be worthwhile to you to do a search on Vertex here. It has been a mixed bag over the years. My spidey-sense is saying they smelled blood and had a feeding frenzy on what they perceived as an unsuspecting customer.

Not time to get confrontational just yet, but I'd go over there and just act curious and ask questions, ask to see the rusty tank. Might be worth asking how there's no spark since you had a good running car the week before. Maybe they meant "weak spark"?

Not to bring a personal bias into this, but if they are wanting to charge you an arm and a leg for a gas tank I've got a couple of good used ones at reasonable prices (if indeed you really need one).

Good luck and keep us posted.

[richde]

Originally Posted by Gunter

At some point these old 911's will cost money; it's not unusual to spend 2k.
In fact, most people spend more in parts/maintenance than the original purchase price.
These 911's require input. A Civic would be a better daily driver.
Depending on condition, the tank can be re-coated from the inside or you can buy a good used one.
A new pump is fine. Make sure that they also install a new check-valve with the pump.
The 6-pin Bosch CDI module was rebuild, it should still be under warranty?
If the PP showed a good overall condition including good numbers on Compression/Leakdown, it's up to you if you want to keep it and spend the money.

This is all true, but in this case it feels like somebody is getting raked over the coals. Everything works fine, change a fuel line and the tank rusts over, fuel pump goes out, and the ignition fails.

Sanity check, isle 5.

[dtw]

Originally Posted by richde

This is all true, but in this case it feels like somebody is getting raked over the coals. Everything works fine, change a fuel line and the tank rusts over, fuel pump goes out, and the ignition fails.

Sanity check, isle 5.

Precisely. Gunter's advise is dead-on in a vacuum, but this particular scenario does not pass the straight-face test.

[stealthn]

I think it's important to get a second opinion in this case before dropping a dime.

[javadog]

Tell me what the connection might be between lifting the air flow plate and whether or not the ignition system loses spark.

I'm waiting.....

Your car may have a rusty fuel tank, it may not. Deal with that later.

There is a simple test for the fuel pump. You measure the delivery volume and pressure. It either passes the specified values, or it doesn't. Obviously it is doing something, as without it the car would never even attempt to fire.

As for the ignition....

My advice is to have a little face-to-face meeting with the guys at Vertex and have them discuss exactly how they came to the conclusions they did. Frankly, I'd haul the car to a different shop, unless by some miracle they could demonstrate that these problems all ocurred the minute the car rolled off the tow truck. Something smells bad here.

JR

[vash]

go over there and peek into your gastank. if your fuel pump was dead, you wouldnt be able to squirt any fuel right?

you did have gas in the car right?

[bottomfish]

Just got royally screwed. I guess it is my fault but damm, no mercy. When i picked up the car I was very let down. Parts were missing from the engine compartment, the car was full of grease and oil and the diagnosis was a total bunch of crap. They first said the gas tank was bad, they ignition module and coil, fuel pump, etc. Total BS. They only replaced the fuel pump, they bullied me into the replacement of the gas tank. They told me they had to drop the engine to replace the idel screw (Which they said was missing). Mind you that the car was a daily driver for a few weeks with out any issues. When I complained about the fees and service rendered the owner got stupid and said he had to rebuild my intake because the frequency plate was stuck, make a long story short.... he said he did twice the amount of work I was being billed for. I guess that makes me the luck one, yeah right. So I paid the guys and drove off very unhappy in effort to avoid a nasty argument.

At this point I would like to hook up with fellow Pelicans and try to learn a bit and get confidence in working on my 911SC. I can change a part as well as any other crook and save myself the headache of feeling ripped off...

[Gunter]

That's disappointing.
Surely there are some shops in FL that fellow Pelicans can recommend?
As for DIY, get the Bentley SC Repair Manual and maybe you can hook up with someone from Pelican in your area who could help you?

[richde]

That's a shame, sorry to hear about that.