The WORST RSR front flare welding job EVER.

[Zeke]

I think I see the problem, but rather than going through all that, let me say I rather like the proportions of the flare to the fender. The RSR would project more and be more vertical at the lip. I think at this point I'd cut on the bumper. Another craft to learn, FRP.

[Zeke]

I use a variety of these profile gauges while fitting up to ensure one side is like the other.

[crashmy911]

Looks like the guy used flux core wire on those bad welds. I think that's the wire that comes with something on it so you don't have to use gas. When I was first teaching my self to weld I used the flux core and my welds looked like that. What a hack!

[berettafan]

Well you got balls, i'll say that much.

I was kinda wondering how much metal was left with all that grinding.

Ditto on the comment about your 'patch' and the large open space. Even the ends that look 'close' are pushing it. I noticed that you didn't appear to finish the welds on the patch. I THINK this is a potential rust problem in the future (not to mention scruffy looking).

I don't think i could do any better than you but these things should be pointed out since you are doing the Lord's work (aka wrenching on 911's).

Not to hijack but i'm interested in the consensus on what the best grinding agent is to avoid too much heat yet allow for reasonably quick weld cleanup. 4 1/2" flap wheels are just damn dangerous in the areas that Michael is working in.

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by crashmy911

Looks like the guy used flux core wire on those bad welds. I think that's the wire that comes with something on it so you don't have to use gas. When I was first teaching my self to weld I used the flux core and my welds looked like that. What a hack!

And here i thought it musta been a big arse stick welder

Whatever it was that person should be ashamed of taking $$ for that 'work' (assuming he did).

[rennch]

Originally Posted by berettafan

Well you got balls, i'll say that much.

I was kinda wondering how much metal was left with all that grinding.

Ditto on the comment about your 'patch' and the large open space. Even the ends that look 'close' are pushing it. I noticed that you didn't appear to finish the welds on the patch. I THINK this is a potential rust problem in the future (not to mention scruffy looking).

I don't think i could do any better than you but these things should be pointed out since you are doing the Lord's work (aka wrenching on 911's).

Not to hijack but i'm interested in the consensus on what the best grinding agent is to avoid too much heat yet allow for reasonably quick weld cleanup. 4 1/2" flap wheels are just damn dangerous in the areas that Michael is working in.

I didn't actually use that patch you saw in the picture. The one I used was much tighter, and I did clean the welds before applying POR-15.

I was also really careful to JUST grind the welds...as I got closer and closer to the actual fender, I went to a finer grinder, and was careful to keep the fender from overheating with a quenched rag.

[Zeke]

On the head light repair you can see the wire from a MIG welder sticking thru. the kludge didn't even bother to snip those off, much less dress the welds. I can't tell whether the wires have the flux core (not a coating, BTW) or are solid. My guess is solid. You can be just as bad with MIG as with flux core wire feed. This guy was a real point and shoot artist.

All MIG welds should be relatively flat, not worms and not lumps. And certainly not a dog pile like emtyo found under his bondo sculpture.

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by emptyo

and was careful to keep the fender from overheating with a quenched rag.

Can you elaborate on this? Is it grind/pat/grind/pat/grind/pat or are you holding the rag on the other side of the metal or what?

[Tim K]

When fitting patches for butt welding (with MIG), I've always used a small gap approximately the thickness of the wire (.023"). I've got a slight problem getting good penetration with my little buzz box Lincoln 125 Plus when I butt straight up with no gap. More powerful welders may not have the same issue.

When I use my TIG (wherever possible), I use no gap at all (as per Ron Covell - the master).

If possible I'd try and do all of the welding of the flare with the fender bolted solid on the car. These fenders are not too stiff torsionally along their length and could easily be tweaked during welding on the bench.

Keep up the good work.

Tim K

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by berettafan

Can you elaborate on this? Is it grind/pat/grind/pat/grind/pat or are you holding the rag on the other side of the metal or what?

You need a heat sink to keep the heat from spreading. A damp rag held on either side of the weld will do some, moving and turning the rag will do more. A blast of compressed air just as you finish the weld is a good way to minimize warping. Putting the rag right on the weld actually shrinks the metal, but I don't like this method so much. I like to hammer and dolly the weld a bit while it's still very hot. This is tougher on a MIG weld than a gas or TIG weld as the MIG is very hard to start with

Lastly, Eastwood sells a putty that acts as a heat sink. You put a strip on either side of the weld.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by Tim K

When fitting patches for butt welding (with MIG), I've always used a small gap approximately the thickness of the wire (.023"). I've got a slight problem getting good penetration with my little buzz box Lincoln 125 Plus when I butt straight up with no gap. More powerful welders may not have the same issue.

When I use my TIG (wherever possible), I use no gap at all (as per Ron Covell - the master).

If possible I'd try and do all of the welding of the flare with the fender bolted solid on the car. These fenders are not too stiff torsionally along their length and could easily be tweaked during welding on the bench.

Keep up the good work.

Tim K

Having a opening at the root of the weld sometimes helps penetration. If it works, do it.

Generally, when I use these--



I open the gap only where they have to be and do the rest of the fit up as tight as possible. Then, when those come out, I fill weld those gaps. Tight fit up means less heat. So, IOW I don't do like in the pic.

[rattlsnak]

You said you had two options,. I say you had three.........

Buy fiberglass fenders and qtrs that are already flaired!!! Would have saved you countless hours of work,..

BUT, that being said,. outstanding job so far!

[rennch]

Originally Posted by Tim K

When fitting patches for butt welding (with MIG), I've always used a small gap approximately the thickness of the wire (.023"). I've got a slight problem getting good penetration with my little buzz box Lincoln 125 Plus when I butt straight up with no gap. More powerful welders may not have the same issue.

When I use my TIG (wherever possible), I use no gap at all (as per Ron Covell - the master).

If possible I'd try and do all of the welding of the flare with the fender bolted solid on the car. These fenders are not too stiff torsionally along their length and could easily be tweaked during welding on the bench.

Keep up the good work.

Tim K

Thanks, and agreed. I welded just the (stiffer) bottom portion on the bench, since it was easier to do it there. Then I fitted and bolted up the fender for the rest of the install.

As far as the rag goes, I kept a soaked rag near me, and was careful to move from spot to spot and leave a lot of space between the tacks. I kept my left hand gloveless so I could tell how hot the fender got. If it got too hot, I would quench the weld area with water until it cooled.

Great advice from Milt, et al. I definitely feel more comfortable behind a welder's mask now, but I know I have a long way to go. If I can salvage these fenders (and this passenger side is WAY worse than the driver's side) it will be a score.

[rennch]

Originally Posted by rattlsnak

You said you had two options,. I say you had three.........

Buy fiberglass fenders and qtrs that are already flaired!!! Would have saved you countless hours of work,..

BUT, that being said,. outstanding job so far!

Nope....not an option. My SCCA class strictly prohibits full fiberglass fender replacements. I wish!

What we need is someone on this board that has access to metal stamping tools, so we can actually create an early fitment RSR front flare and sell it. Who's in?

[stevemfr]

Originally Posted by milt

You can be just as bad with MIG as with flux core wire feed. This guy was a real point and shoot artist.

Just what I was going to say.

Sticking-through-mig-wire comes from trying to weld metal that is virtually non-existent (or non-existent when people try to fill huge holes w/a weld rather than a patch). You burn right through and continue feeding wire until you get enough current flowing to melt the wire. Not pretty.

emptyo, that was visible when you bought the fenders, wasn't it? And the underside of the flare weld?

[berettafan]

Check over on EarlyS. Somebody there was working on ST flares.

Might shoot an email to our buddy at Restoration Design.

[rennch]

@stevemfr,

No, nothing was visible...it was covered with thick undercoating underneath. They seriously were 10 lbs lighter when I got them back from the blaster.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by emptyo

@stevemfr,

No, nothing was visible...it was covered with thick undercoating underneath. They seriously were 10 lbs lighter when I got them back from the blaster.

I'm not trying to be hyper critical here, really, but that must have been some undercoating job to hide this:



The idiot musta used roof mastic.

Anyway, Michael, you're doing one hell of a lot of work and you'll be nearly an expert if you pull it off, which it looks like you may. Keep that nozzle as low to the work as you can get it and still see (about 1/4 inch). Use 20 degree angle and "push" your welds for the easiest approach. You can make a little cooler weld with a little more angle, but observe the backside for even penetration. Examine your welds in the dark with a light from behind to locate pinholes which will come back to haunt you if you don't get them ALL.

[rennch]

Originally Posted by milt

I'm not trying to be hyper critical here, really, but that must have been some undercoating job to hide this:



The idiot musta used roof mastic.

Anyway, Michael, you're doing one hell of a lot of work and you'll be nearly an expert if you pull it off, which it looks like you may. Keep that nozzle as low to the work as you can get it and still see (about 1/4 inch). Use 20 degree angle and "push" your welds for the easiest approach. You can make a little cooler weld with a little more angle, but observe the backside for even penetration. Examine your welds in the dark with a light from behind to locate pinholes which will come back to haunt you if you don't get them ALL.

Oh, it was indeed. Remember though, that I got a close up look at these for the first time when they were delivered to me. I relied a bit on the PO (who didn't do the work on these) to give me a good assessment. If for some reason I don't pull this off, I'll buy some new turbo flares and start over...I'll have at least an inch of fresh metal to work with. But...lets not talk about that just yet.


Back to the topic at hand...should I weld the flares where they are, and focus on trimming the bumper to fit, or reshape the flare area? They *look* pretty good in reference to other pics and in relation to the rear flares. That middle filler panel is a little scary to me though....

[Zeke]

As I said, I like the overall shape you're coming up with. And, as I understand the situation, the ST flares, and therefore possibly the RSR flares, did vary from car to car depending on who did the work, a race shop or the factory. There is even some evidence that the factory did not always make the same product. So, you have a little creative latitude here.

I do both metalwork and FRP work. I started in FRP back in the late '60's, so I'm pretty experienced there as opposed to being somewhat of a newbie at the metalwork (even though I've been "bumping" metal for almost the same amount of time; I have not fabricated nearly as much). I would get the fenders the same from side to side and in a shape that comes to the bumper as best as possible. At that point, I'd bring the bumpers to the fenders. Hardly anyone who has purchased some of this aftermarket fiberglass (FRP) stuff has not had to do some significant fitting. Sometimes you have to cut the things, remove a wedge and fiberglass repair your cut. This is a lot easier for me than cutting and patching metal. For some hero like Ron Covel, well he would just do the metal even if he had to make large portions of the fender from scratch.

To me, there's a difference between taking the path of least resistance vs. building an all metal handcrafted show piece where your reputation is always being scrutinized. That's the benefit we have being home based car modders, we aren't heroes and can switch from one medium to the next to get the job done and the car on the road or track. For instance, I wouldn't hesitate one minute before installing FRP headlight buckets in those fenders.