911 ride height & corner balancing

[glennspiegler]

88 911 Carrera 154,000 miles, street only, daily driver. I DIY my front control arm bushings, spring plate bushings with polybronze bearing all bilstein shocks, front strut mount bushings, trailing arm bushings, rear wheel bearings. Set my ride height @ 25.5 front (floor to fender and 25.25 in the rear. Brought it to the shop for 4 corner balancing and alignment. He said it took 8 hours to get it right. $100 per hour was $800 plus $200 alignment, ouch!
front left 624 front right 615 pounds
rear left 865 rear right 830
Rides well but height is now:
front left 25.25 front right 26 1/16
rear left 24.50 rear right 24 7/8
I have also measured wheel center to torsion bar center which is right rear 2.3cm, left rear 4.0cm, right front 14.0cm, left front 15.0cm
Weights are good, ride height is off.
Mechanic says leave it alone. Seems to me that if right front was lowered and left rear was raised, I could have better ride height and still be balanced. Was I overcharged and was the advice correct? He says we can put it on the scale again which might be more expense and require alignment check again. $200 more. Please advise. Thanks Glenn Spiegler

[Flieger]

Now that's a whopper of a first post

Can you run that by us again?

You can also use the edit button down on the bottom of the post to streamline your post.

[Flieger]

To get corner weights right, your ride heights will generally be off by a noticable amount. However, body panels are not precision aligned for fender/tire clearance, so you could have perfect ride heights but still look out of whack. The corner balance sounds pretty good to me. I would stick with what you got.

[glennspiegler]

Used the edit button to get rid of the "junk" thanks. Was hoping to get a leave it alone answer. Opinions on this question at different sites have ranged from do balance again with more attention to both height and balance, to yours. Thanks

[glennspiegler]

I put 8 hrs more in it with the mechanic and this is what we have with half tank of gas and my body wt in driver seat. One smashed finger which is rough being a surgeon, typing this is painful.
front left 25 5/8 666lbs. front right 26 1/8 620 lbs
rear left 25 5/16 935 lbs. rear right 25 1/2 858 lbs
Diagonals are 1524 and 1555 which are good
front left right difference 46 lbs acceptable
rear left right difference 77 lbs. is high
I could lower rear left a tad, but I am ready to accept this for a street car. Got rid of the severe ht discrepancy which was bothersome to look at. My mechanic wants to keep going. Had a deer hit my lt front fender and windshield years ago, may have fender heightt assymetric which is forcing a weight/height comprimise. I'm despirate, please advise whether to quit. I will then realign again!

[Gunter]

Originally Posted by glennspiegler

I put 8 hrs more in it with the mechanic and this is what we have with half tank of gas and my body wt in driver seat. One smashed finger which is rough being a surgeon, typing this is painful.
front left 25 5/8 666lbs. front right 26 1/8 620 lbs
rear left 25 5/16 935 lbs. rear right 25 1/2 858 lbs
Diagonals are 1524 and 1555 which are good
front left right difference 46 lbs acceptable
rear left right difference 77 lbs. is high
I could lower rear left a tad, but I am ready to accept this for a street car. Got rid of the severe ht discrepancy which was bothersome to look at. My mechanic wants to keep going. Had a deer hit my lt front fender and windshield years ago, may have fender heightt assymetric which is forcing a weight/height comprimise. I'm despirate, please advise whether to quit. I will then realign again!

I am with Flieger; you had it right the first time!
Why did you change the rear height? ~24.5" was good.
24.5" rear and 25" front gives you the desired 1 deg nose-down attitude.
Do you have the spacers (Bump steer kit) under the front rack?
What Camber and Toe do you have front and rear?
Look after the compromised digit.

[glennspiegler]

Changed because Right front 26 1/16 and left front 25.25 was almost an inch different side to side. Could feel the "tilt" when inside. When we lowered the front right it threw the corner balancing way off. Ride now feels level. Everyone I spoke to from several shops, including Steve Weimer and Chuck from Elephant Racing suggested I get the side to side height less than 1/2 inch. Would you quit here? My original post stated I wanted 25.5 up front and 25.25 in rear but we ended where we are trying to get height and weight right.
Dont have bump spacer with my turbo tie rods.
Camber and toe was done by alignment shop, not sure.

[afterburn 549]

The last two guys you mentioned are the gorues you should pay attn too !!!!
As for me buying a set of scales is the only way to go. Every time you change something you are at some one else's mercy with your $$
I know you can get the numbers better then what you are now showing

[Gunter]

Are you not doing alignment and CB at the same time?
Usually the alignment and corner balance is done together in the same shop and 8h is plenty considering that you changed the bushings yourself.
Are you in the right place?
The alignment figures are printed out for you to take home so you know what you have.
Alignment shops have the factory settings in their computer and most people don't want the factory Camber or Toe.
If your tie rods are level with 25.5"(on level ground), you don't need the spacers.
Check it out; spacers are easily installed.
It sounds to me that you need to decide what Camber/Toe you want for street driving and do it all together including CB.
Alignment should show if the tub is distorted, or the struts are bent; but you need the figures.
Some shops keep them in their computer for a while; maybe you can call them?
However, if you started doing CB after the alignment, the figures don't mean that much.

[richde]

Originally Posted by glennspiegler

I put 8 hrs more in it with the mechanic and this is what we have with half tank of gas and my body wt in driver seat. One smashed finger which is rough being a surgeon, typing this is painful.
front left 25 5/8 666lbs. front right 26 1/8 620 lbs
rear left 25 5/16 935 lbs. rear right 25 1/2 858 lbs
Diagonals are 1524 and 1555 which are good
front left right difference 46 lbs acceptable
rear left right difference 77 lbs. is high
I could lower rear left a tad, but I am ready to accept this for a street car. Got rid of the severe ht discrepancy which was bothersome to look at. My mechanic wants to keep going. Had a deer hit my lt front fender and windshield years ago, may have fender heightt assymetric which is forcing a weight/height comprimise. I'm despirate, please advise whether to quit. I will then realign again!

Sounds like you should do the difficult sounding official measuring method to find out your ride height.

[glennspiegler]

One mechanic does the corner balancing. When he is finished the alignment shop picks it up and returns it to the mechanic when done. That is why I dont have the numbers from the alignment shop. Last time the same alignment shop did just an alignment for me they gave me a bill with comments telling me camber and toe figures they corrected but I dont know what they corrected them to. I'm sure I can get them, but I dont know enough what to ask them for and have accepted factory settings they choose. Thats not my issue now, its ride height and corner balancing tradeoffs which come first. Alighment shop said we were dead on for toe and camber after first corner balance was done, redid the balance due to 1" front right ride height diff than left. Have not realigned again until I decide I am done with corner bal wts and ride ht adj.
I have done the torsion bar measurements. Heights are equal, too high is the debate and whether to accept above corner weights.
left front 142 mm right front 137 mm
left rear 19 mm right rear 14 mm This is without my body wt which was present for Corner Bal
According to Bentley front is 108 +/-5 can add 15mm for older cars = 128mm max
rear is 16+/-5 can add 15mm for older cars = 36 mm max
therefore rear is correct, to get front in range would actually need to raise car further which is contrary to all fender measurements and advise.
Could it be the Bilsteins pushing the fender hieght up, while the torsion bars say I'm low in front?
After I took the above measurements realized the car had been sitting, ride heights after sitting, without being bounced to mid range as Bentley says to do for Bilsteins, as done on original measurements are
front L 25 3/8 front R 25 5/8
rear L 25 3/8 fr R 25 1/8
Then drove it, bounced bumpers to mid way and get: LT Front 25 3/4 Rt 26 1/8
Lt rear 25 1/2 Rt 25 3/8
Its a crazy game.

[cab83_750]

Originally Posted by glennspiegler

He said it took 8 hours to get it right. $100 per hour was $800 plus $200 alignment, ouch!

Guys, correct me if I am wrong, but this is the most expensive alignment/CB I have seen here!

[glennspiegler]

I know I was overcharged, but would like help with the questions raised. Thanks

[rfloz]

You need to go to a shop that sets up Porsches for racing or learn to do it yourself.

Where are you located? Someone nearby should be able to recommend a good shop in your area.

BTW, a good shop will always give you a printout of before and after alignment specs. And, a good shop will do both the alignment and the corner balance because changing ride height to achieve correct corner balance changes the alignment which must then be re-checked.

Given the car's history and all the difficulty you are having, the car may be tweaked a bit. Again, a good shop can check this and tell you how much and whether it can be corrected.

Finally, fender height is only a rough approximation. Measure as per Porsche's method or at least from the ground to a spot on the under carriage just in front of the rear wheels and just behind the front wheels.

Keep at it. It's worth the trouble.

[afterburn 549]

There is no way you will get a corner balance and wheel alignment for less then 600.00
Everyone here told me I could. ( I did not think it was possible when you consider the time consuming task )
Long story - no one quoted less then 600. They were a lot more then that here in the Seattle area.
So I am buying a set of scales.
tmo

[911st]

Question, if you corner balance first, then do an alignment, could it not change the corner balance?

Especialy if the camber in any of the wheels is played with.

[afterburn 549]

I do no not think so as all you would be doing is changing where the load is in the tire

[Gunter]

Originally Posted by afterburn 549

There is no way you will get a corner balance and wheel alignment for less then 600.00
Everyone here told me I could. ( I did not think it was possible when you consider the time consuming task )
Long story - no one quoted less then 600. They were a lot more then that here in the Seattle area.
So I am buying a set of scales.
tmo

Quotes are relative to the work needed; it all depends what parts/bushings/shocks have to be replaced on to of the actual work.
How can any shop give you an accurate estimate without any knowledge about the condition of the suspension-components?

Ideal situation is DIY to replace faulty components, then set the ride height you want, even a rough alignment and then go to a competent shop to do the final alignment and CB.

I did all of the above, ordered 4 new Bridgestones from Tire Rack, had them shipped to G2 in Seattle, then drove there to do the final alignment and CB.
G2 did it in 3.5 hours including mounting the new tires; fantastic!
They let me be right there to do the custom-setting of Camber and Toe I wanted; very nice. The computer is set to allow for the driver weight and I got a print-out of everything. I would go back to G2 anytime.
The cost can be reasonable if you do most of the preliminary work beforehand.

Besides, if you buy 4 scales you need to place them on absolute level ground to get an accurate CB and you still have to do the alignment.
How often do you need a CB to justify the cost of 4 scales?

I hope Glenn will answer my questions from my last reply to get a clearer picture.

[afterburn 549]

Well I am probably the weird one here, but my car changes ,I change , my car is in a state of evolution. so even @ 2 trips to the scales I am ahead. I feel the master of his treasure will all ways do a better job then a hired hand.....nothing against the shops don't get all wound up
As far as level that's a EZ one to solve.
Everyone has to justify how they do things ,I could go on and on.
I feel Every location should have set of scales that could be loaned out for a weak....I believe Steve Weiner from Rennsport in Portland just solved it for us N.Enders We now will have scales in our midst

[911st]

Adding camber, to the back especially, rolls the wheel in and lowers the car a bit. I would think you would have to be pretty close on alignment before a balance might be done. The front is not so bad but a bit of the same thing. Toe an caster change should not have as much effect.

So what should the methodology be. Rebuild suspension , check air pressure in all tires, rough alignment, corner balance, finish alignment? Should there be a finish or double check corner balance finish??