Differences between a 911 2.0 US coupe and US coupe Karmann...

[alexARC]

Hi guys

I'm far from being an expert about early 911 (SWB) specially US cars...

Apparently, some VIN correspond to 911 S coupe US and others to 911 S coupe Karmann.

Could you tell me a little bit more about this distinction?
Is there a difference in the value of these 911 S?

Cheers
Alex (european porsche addict )

[EarlyPorsche]

Different factories. The Karmann was built at Karmann plant. Some say the Karmann coupe is a couple pounds lighter because they used lighter steel. Other than that they are the exact same and were made using the same exact machinery and training process.

[alexARC]

Thank you

It's funny to produce the same car in 2 different plants.

[tcar]

Not really. P was selling more cars than they could build themselves.

Boxsters (and SAAB convertibles) are built in a plant in Finland by___________ (don't remember the name of the company).

Cayennes by VW. 914 by VW.

924/944 by Audi (even had an Audi engine).

[Grady Clay]

Alex,
Welcome to the Forum
You will find a lot of help her.

Porsche used their acquired (July ’63) vendor and vendor Karmann to build the SWB bodies; Porsche (ex-Reuter) and Karmann. Prior to ’68 Karmann only built 912 bodies. Starting in ’68 Karmann also built normal 911 USA coupes, 911T coupes and 912s. All others were built at the Porsche Reuter factory.

In the mid ’70 I queried Porsche engineering executives about the Karmann quality and I got an interesting explanation. They felt the quality was consistently better than Porsche Werk I and much less re-work because Karmann was always trying to impress Porsche (and probably to preserve their contract). I don’t think there is any validity to the ‘thin sheet metal’ rumor.

Best,
Grady

[EarlyPorsche]

I agree that the "thin sheet metal" rumor is probably not true either. I have a Karmann body and I should have some actual Porsche metal too. Perhaps one day I will measure. Probably the same or real real close. Either way not worth betting on for sure.

[alexARC]

Thanks a lot guys, that's really helpfull.

I'm new here but i have already enjoyed the amount of technical informations... In France, the porsche community is a bit different. I would say more snobby, owners just bring their car to the shop and replace items without trying to improve something.

I'm looking for a nice 2.0 SWB to race it in a french endurance serie. Good crack.

[richemj]

Not sure about "thinner" steel, but I remember reading Karmann didn't use galvanized steel as did the factory starting in '70 or so, making it lighter. Word is that the factory used Karmann bodies for a good percentage of their 911-based racecars (STs in particular) just for that reason. I second the understanding of quality - wanting to keep to Porsche specs.

Can anyone confirm?

I've got a Karmann '71 ... I try doing some thickness measurements as well, mostly on the tub and rockers where galvanizing was first used. This would only make since if the steel itself was different, we went to bare metal on the Gulf switch.

[tcar]

Porsche didn't use galvanized bodies either. Started w/ floor pans only in, maybe '73???

Increased content until fully galvanized until '76, I think.


BTW, the Karmann Ghia (made by Karmann, duh) is generally thought to be higher quality than the beetle, but I don't think it was. Took (many years ago) a '62 KG I was restoring to a dent doctor place. They had a terrible time; the metal gage was too thick.

[richemj]

Following up on history....

"In 1971 the D-series replaced the C-series. The D-series featured galvanized underfloor areas that were coated with PVC to make the car better resistant to corrosion. In the next years more bodyparts would be galvanized. From 1975 on the 911's were produced with a completetly galvanized body. It's estimated that more then 80% of all Porsches still exist and the galvanzing probably played a large role in this." -911 History Encyclopedia

Below is a thread from the Early911sRegistry that discusses the topic in more detail. There are a couple of nested links in the posts, be sure to look at them as well.
http://www.early911sregistry.org/forum/showthread.php?t=13535

[RWebb]

Note that comparing one example says nothing about plant to plant variation -- a difference could easily be sample to sample variation within a single manf. plant.

[ttweed]

Originally Posted by alexARC

Apparently, some VIN correspond to 911 S coupe US and others to 911 S coupe Karmann.

Could you tell me a little bit more about this distinction?
Is there a difference in the value of these 911 S?

Alex-
I think your source is mistaken. According to Paternie, there were no 911S models built by Karmann, either for USA or ROW distribution. They built only base models during the early years.

Reference: Porsche 911 Red Book:

A Karmann build can be identified by the VIN for model years 1968-1971. Karmann built no 911S or 911L models. They also built no Targa bodies for any model.

TT