reinstall engine, can't start, even push start
 

I've reinstalled my engine after dropping it for a tranny rebuild, and now that it's back in it won't start. When I turn the key I get a click from the starter, and when I release the key from the start position I can hear the plunger retreat back, but no movement of the flywheel at all. When I tried to push start it, all I was able to get was a faint grinding noise, and no start, not even a chug.

To give a bit more detail, I'm bump starting it in my driveway, in reverse, because my driveway slopes down away from the house. I've had to adjust the shift coupler because I of course had to disconnect it to remove the transmission. No doubt I don't have a perfect adjustment, but I can at least find all the gears and engage them, at least as far as I can tell with the car not running - it all feels normal. So I put it in reverse, put the clutch in with the brakes on, turn the key to run the fuel pump/electricals, let off the brake, get a good amount of speed and drop the clutch while giving it gas. The clutch engages and the car jolts like it should, but I can hear some bit of grinding or something moving in the tranny - grinding isn't really the word for it - it's not like when you blow a shift.

So my big concern is that I really screwed something up with the gears inside the tranny and the whole thing has to come out again.

Any ideas? Next step is to flatbed it into the shop.

Thanks,
Chris

Sounds like something bound up in the clutch. Did you change any clutch components?

If you put it in, you can pull it out so get to work :)

Yes, all new clutch - new clutch disc, pressure plate, TO bearing. Complete teardown of the 915.

What do you mean by "bound up"?

Just another thing I thought of - does it matter which bolt on the tranny the ground strap attaches to? I'm talking about the thick strap that attaches to the chassis right near the tranny mounting bar. Is it possible that it matters which nut on the tranny it goes on, and I've got it on the wrong one?

When I turn the key to start, I hear the click and the plunger in the solenoid move, then when I release the key I can hear the plunger release.

I would start by removing the starter, do a bench test of it. once you remove that as a cause, inspect the clutch assembly as best you can. I would then check to validate you've got spark. then pull a plug and see if it is wet or not. Sometimes and engine can get vac locked.

try those steps and let us know what happens.

Ok, I'll pull the starter tomorrow.

But I won't get spark without the engine turning, will I? Because the distributor isn't turning?

What would make a plug wet? Fuel? The engine hasn't run since I put it away last fall.

BTW, it's a 2.4T with Zenith carbs, if that makes any difference.

Thanks!

When ever I get that starter sound it means that I have a dead battery... I hate that sound... Try a bat. swap with another of your cars and see if it works.

Best regards,

Michael

If you're getting noise out of the starter, clutch or tranny, I wouldn't do anything to start it until you've figured out for sure what's making the noise.

The bump start should have worked if the battery was dead or close to it. I agree with 125shifter, don't force it to start as you might tear up the whole tranny and be deeper in the hole then had you just sent the tranny out to be done professionally in the first place.

Also forgot to mention, the battery is brand new - just bought it today.

Agreed about further bump starting. I'm going to solve the starter problem first, then get the car running in neutral, then try to engage a gear.

remove the starter, bench test it. if you can get it to engage (with a 12v power source) you'll know that you've got an issue with the engine side of things.

try the coil wire I think it should spark when you attempt to crank.

I suspect the starter is locked in the extended position.

Chris,
You say "the car jolts like it should" Does the engine turn over or just stop the car? If the second check for hydraulic lock of one of the cylinders. Easy to pull all spark plugs and see if the starter will turn it over.

Does your starter have 2 yellow wires? If you accidentally switch them, the car won't start.

Does your starter have 2 yellow wires? If you accidentally switch them, the car won't start.

The engine doesn't turn over at all- the car just stops.

Yes, the starter has 2 yellow wires. I've swapped them back and forth several times, just to be sure.

Could it be the dreaded lost detent and now be in 2 gears simultaneously?

Will the car roll freely when you select neutral? If not, you're stuck in one of the gears (R or 5 likely). When you attempted to start the car with the starter, did you have the clutch pushed in or just in neutral? If the motor won't crank with the clutch depressed it's not a tranny problem, as this 'detaches' the engine from the tranny. Bummer, man.

Just a thought, you might not be too far off when you were thinking of the ground strap... I had that issue on my '67 once. Your issue sounds very simliar except for the faint grinding noise, of course, depending on how faint and how long since the car has run, that could be anything, even brake rotors.

Since you had a doubt, I would double check that, and try to clean the contact areas on the body and the transmission, make sure they are clean, maybe even add some dialectric grease to help and protect... sometimes a ground strap one can do wonders for a car.

Apparently the car rolls even if a gear is selected - which pretty much means the transmission is fine. At the very least it's not the root cause of this issue.

1) With a gear selected, if the car is rolled with the clutch disengaged then the input shaft (and clutch disc) is spinning freely which is good news.

2) With a gear selected and the car moving the clutch is then engaged and the car comes to a halt. This is a good sign as well; now we are pretty darn sure the that at least the tested gear (Reverse) is in working order and nothing south (or would it be north in a Porsche? :D ... Down stream!) of the clutch-disc is causing this issue.

1 and 2 do a pretty good job of eliminating the starter from the equation as well as mutually confirming each-other.

I gather you have not yet attempted to turn the engine over via the Fan? That's the very first thing I'd try but I'm afraid you'll get discouraging results. I take it the engine wasn't opened? It's reasonable to assume there is no mechanical issue with the motor? If so, this pretty much leads us to the flywheel area.

I'm afraid you may have a bolt that has gone through the bell-housing and is now in interference with the flywheel/clutch? I really hope the crunching sound you heard wasn't ring-gear teeth being sheared off or worse yet, the bell-housing giving way. Something is going wrong in that area but I'm hoping for a bolt as that won't require splitting them again assuming nothing is damaged now. This is the first thing I thought of when I read the post this morning. Your description made me a little ill but I hoped someone with more Porsche-specific experience (John Walker) might chime in with a miracle cure.

Let us know what happens, hopefully I'm wrong! If not, hardly the end of the world I suppose.

Hi, just a thought. When you mated up the tranny to the engine did you check that the clutch throwout fork located in the groove of the throwout bearing ?

Cheers Mike

My thought also.
It's easy to miss the bearing groove and get the fork bound behind it.

It's definitely not the detents, nor is it stuck in gear. I can say this for sure, because I started a thread entitled "Grrr, *$&#ing detents!" in which I made sure I got it right! :) I also know it's not stuck in gear, because it was stuck in reverse when I reinstalled it, and I had to pull the reverse light switch and force it out of reverse.

The car rolls freely in neutral, does NOT roll when it's in gear, and DOES roll freely when in gear, with the clutch in, which also confirms that yes, I did make sure the clutch TO fork was properly in the groove in the TO bearing. It wasn't at first, and luckily I read something here on Pelican before I reinstalled the engine - I pulled the engine back off the tranny and reattached them, making sure the fork was in the groove, and confirmed by looking through the little "window" in the top of the tranny to confirm.

vreference, no, there's no reason to assume any mechanical issue with the motor - it was running fine before removal, and it wasn't opened at all. The "grinding" I heard was not grating nor loud enough to really cause me concern. What I think it was was just simply the noise of the transmission gears moving and turning, without the accompanying sound of the engine running - imagine having the car jacked up and in gear and turning the wheels so all the innards of the tranny are moving - that's more like what it sounded like.

I'm going to pull the starter this morning, as soon as I get some breakfast and go buy a 10mm allen socket (was using borrowed tools when I dropped the engine). What about my question about the ground strap bolt on the tranny - does it matter which bolt/nut?

Can you turn the motor over by hand? (pulley wrench on the fan and pressing the belt on the RH side to take up slack) (sorry if this has been asked - I just skimmed the replies. Everyone is pointing in this direction and it was amongst my first thoughts, too)

No shiit. This is the first thing I would be trying before I pulled the starter.

I seem to be late to the party but the first thing I thought of when you mentioned that this is a '72, is that the cylinders might be full of oil. Was the engine spun over before putting everything back together? Don't bump the car again until you are sure the engine spins with the clutch thrown out (might need a helper or chock).

Ok, engine turns over by hand no problem. It's in gear, and the car lurched forward a bit when I turned the pulley. Here's a short video (2.5MB):

http://cledroit.googlepages.com/MVI_5899.AVI

If you ignore the sound of the fan belt slightly slipping on the pulley, you can hear the transmission gears turning, and if you watch the garage wall in the background, on the 2nd turn you can see the car move (the camera was sitting on the engine shelf.

The engine oil was drained before we removed the engine, of course, but I can't say I remember for certain if we spun the engine at all before reinstalling - I don't remember doing so, but I could be wrong.

Should I retry turning the engine over with the clutch pushed in?

edit: BTW, just to confirm, I did indeed watch the lower pulley to make sure it was turning, and that it wasn't just the fan belt slipping on the lower pulley.

Ok, I put a chuck under the wheel and put it in neutral (I'm home alone right now and don't have anything heavy enough to hold the clutch pedal down). The motor turned very easily by hand with minimal pressure on the fan belt, and now the transmission noise is much clearer. Here's another short video - have a listen and tell me if this means anything:

http://cledroit.googlepages.com/MVI_5900.AVI

(1.75MB)

OK good. Engine is not full of oil and your flywheel is not blocked. Time to check out the starter. Before doing that though, I'd check the battery to ensure it is putting out enough juice. Yep, I know it is new. Also make sure your cables are securely fastened and in good condition, especially the ground. Also check your ground strap on the transmission. Did you paint your crossmember? No it doesn't matter really which bolt you use but the strap should be in good condition and the contact points should be nice and clean. I'd check all that before going to the effort of removing the starter.

Oh...is your clutch properly adjusted? What happens when you try starting in neutral.

All the grounds I removed were significantly cleaned up before reinstalling the engine and tranny, especially the ground strap, though I'll do it again. Not only is it a new battery, I've tried it with another battery from another car known to be good, plus I've tried jumping it from 2 other cars (not at the same time! :) ) just to completely eliminate the variable of the battery. I'm going to pull the starter now - may as well, I'll eliminate another variable.

What about the sound as I turned the engine by hand? Is that normal?

Sounds like you may have something in your bellhousing that's getting into the flywheel. By the way, it's very hard to roll start a car in reverse and also not such a good thing to do anyway since reverse is not a well supported gear in the tranny.

Have you tried to roll start the car in one of the forward gears like second?

No, I haven't been able to. Our driveway is fairly steep, and in order to bump start in 1st or 2nd gear, I'd have to roll it out to the street, which means, if it didn't start, I'll need help pushing it back into the garage. I don't think my pregnant wife would really appreciate me asking her for help with that :)

Once I get someone over to help, I'll try that.

Based on what I've read:

In neutral the engine turns over easily. So the the engine is not 'locked', the tranny is not locked, and the clutch operation should not be an issue at this point.

I would do a few things: (in this order)

Put a jumper from the starter body to the -ve terminal on your batter. Unlikely to help, but easy to do.

Check the battery voltage while the starter operates, or just put jumper cables on your car, your new battery may be bad.

Pull the starter and make sure it works on the bench.

If the starter works on the bench verify that 12V is getting to the starter and the solenoid (when the key turns). i.e. verify the starter is wired properly.

Use a pry bar to gently turn the ring gear when the starter is out. Make sure this is possible to do. Based on what you've posted the ring gear should turn easily. Don't move it too far, just make sure it's free. You do not want to run the cams backwards.

That graunching sounds like the ring gear hitting something. Does it make the same noise if you remove the starter and turn the fan pulley?

Edit: can the ring gear be installed incorrectly and the starter is not engaging the teeth beccause of it?

Ok, sometimes we have to make stupid mistakes to keep us humble, right? The big black lead from the battery wasn't #$&%ing attached!!!! I have NO idea how I missed that, but after I pulled the wires on the starter, the easy lower nut, and was searching for the hidden upper nut to remove it, I noticed this big black wire. I thought to myself, hmm, did I just pull that off the starter? No, I don't think so... Better hook it back and and try to start it to be sure, before I yank the starter. Turned over on the first try. So I'm not sure if I'm deliriously happy or frustrated.

But I didn't let it fire, because there was some noise coming from the tranny. Is it possible it's sort of "half" in a gear?

It makes the sound when I turn the engine by hand with the tranny in neutral.

When I installed the ring gear (you mean the large ring that goes around the flywheel with the teeth for the starter motor to engage, right?) I remember being very careful about it (it was about 3 weeks ago now) and it was obvious - it either would only go one way, or was symmetrical so it didn't matter, but I don't remember which now.

Some noise from the tranny is normal, even in neutral, the input shaft is still rotating if the clutch is not depressed.

Half in gear is unlikely, but 'about to engage' is possible.

Fire it up chicken little.

Hi Christien,
Just so you know - I'm rooting for you my friend. I unfortunately don't have any advice - since I have yet to get everything back togeather again. I'm doing pretty much the same thing as you - replacing the clutch and doing the tranny. If I think of anything or get where you are soon, I'll be sure to let you know.

Semper Fi,
Mike

Can you 'feel' the noise? Either through the spanner as you turn it, or with one hand on the case as you turn it?
I think it must be too long a bolt somewhere rubbing on something (Like when I changed my inner CV's and the bolts were too long and have carved a groove into my tranny case grrr)

Ok, it'll definitely fire if I let it, but something's clearly not right. Have a listen to this recording I just made:

http://cledroit.googlepages.com/start.mp3

Come to think of it, I should move this back to my rebuild thread, because now we're back to tranny rebuild issues:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/399083-christiens-915-rebuild-7.html