Another lowering question

[AVIMAX]

I am in the process of lowering my 1986 Targa, and started with the rear since it seemed far tougher to tackle compared to the front. I took apart the spring plate but I cannot seem to get the torsion bar out to re-index it. Is there any tricks to getting the torsion bar out? It wiggles, but I cannot pull it out. If I were to lower the car by only rotating the spring plate one spline on the outside of the bar and leave the inside as is, I predict the car should be lowered by 2.6 inches since there are 44 splines, and therefore each spline means 8.18 degrees of rotation. The radius arm length is 18.5 inches, so using a little trig... 18.5sin(8.18) = 2.63 inches, if my math is correct. Has anyone lowered their car this much, I mean rear by one outer spline? Any photos of what this will look like. Am I nuts to go this low, I think it is probably too low? The car is stock US height now.

Thanks.

[Scott R]

You need to do two things here, first pry the spring plate away from the body to get it out, then you need to deal with the spring plate side. Best thing I found from both reading and personal experience is to drill a hole in the cap and use a punch to drive the plate off.

As far as lowering goes, don't worry about the splines, use the angle finder method to get it right.

[AVIMAX]

I got the spring plate off no problem. I planned to use the angle method, only problem is I can't get the torsions bars out. So the thought was to only index the spring plate, not the bars in the car, but that means my smallest adjustment is 8.18 degrees, or 1/44 spines.

[74threeliter]

Will Ferch. He's got the right ideas for your lowering questions. Sample link:
torsion bar wheel rates - Wil Ferch - background info please

There is plenty of information out there on this topic

[AVIMAX]

Well, I decided to go ahead and rotate the spring plates by one spline and see what happens. Uh...too low. It looks like a 17 year old got his hands on the car and had his way with the suspension, like those Honda's you see driving around only millimeters off the ground, except that this is a 911, so it looked kind of cool. But I think the fact that I couldn't get the jack out from under the engine is a good indication that this is way too low. According to the workshop manual, the height adjustment bolts on the spring plates are set from the factory so that you can raise the car, but not lower it. Anybody know how much adjustment there is using these bolts? Right now (with the jack stuck under the car, and the front still high) the ground to fender measurement is 23.75" with 215/60-15 tires. If I could get an inch of height out of the adjustment bolts that would probably do it for me.

[AVIMAX]

74threeliter,

Thanks for the recommendation, I did check out the info from Will Ferch, I understand it completely, and if only I could get the torsion bars free from the car I could just go by the angles, it seems that I would need to change the angle of the spring plates by approx. 3 degrees (clockwise for right side) to acheive euro height from stock height. It seems I may have to try again to free the torsion bars.

[Danny_Ocean]

Too low:

[rusnak]

I think you're actually lucky. The torsion bar and spring plate could have been rusted together.

I think most people pound on the torsion bar a little to get it to break free, then pull, pound, pull, etc until it comes out. You can then stick a long bar into once side and pound the other one out.

I think this will work because you don't have a G50 tranny with the bent torsion tube, right? You might want to check on that first.

PB Blaster is your friend.

[midnight911]

i did this few weeks ago. i was surprised how much adjusting room you have on the spring plate height adjuster. try loosening those two bolts and see how much you can increase the height with the adjuster. I think you could increase by an inch or even more...

if you have one side of the torsion bar out, then you could try to push the stuck torsion bar from the other side. Or, like some suggests here, keep pouding on the torsion bar or wiggle it violently and it may come out. Or, you could try to push the torsion bar in and get it out from the other side.

your problem is far easier than the classic torsion bar stuck on the spring plate, which I experienced. I gave up and cut with a grinder and upgraded to 30mm torsion bar...an excuse totally makes sense to me but they all give me that wierd look...why!!!!!???

good luck.

[AVIMAX]

Thanks for the advise. Danny_Ocean, that is nice looking car, ride height looks great with the fenders. I was worried before I dove into this that I was going to have the problem of the spring plates being stuck to the torsion bars, but it seems I was very lucky. I tried wiggling the hell out of the torsion bars, but they just won't let go of the car. I thought about hitting them, but I read somewhere to be careful not to damage the finish on these so that they don't start to rust. I want to keep the original bars for now, so I am treating them somewhat delicately. I am going to try and raise the height with the spring plate adjusting nuts. If I can get an inch out of them, I think I will be OK. If that doesn't work, then I guess I will have to get those bars out and turn them. I really don't want to give up and have to take the car to someone else to do this, I really enjoy doing it myself and would feel a little defeated if I couldn't do it, much more satisfying to drop the car stand back and look at a job well done! But the weather is really nice outside and the car is sitting on jacks and I want to drive. If I hammer (push) on one bar, will it push on the other one since both are stuck in the car?. I don have a G50 transmission, so the tube is straight trough. I was thinking I could hammer a little to break free the other side and then pull it out. I realize that with one bar out, you can push out the other bar with a pole, but what about one bar against the other? Anyone tried this?

[2ndTARGA]

I had the same problem. Eventually I used a small monkey wrench applied behind the flared splined area and this gave me leverage to both wiggle and pull till it came out. A few scratches on the bar but at that point I had to try anything.

Theoretically you could make a puller with a 1/2 inch piece of aluminum plate drilled big enough for the bar but smaller than the end. Then you'd have to slice it in half and cross drill it to bolt it back together on the bar. Then tap two or three holes and screw it out with long bolts. A lot of work but it should be possible.

Ron

[Gunter]

Tap the bar a little and see if it moves in just a little to free it.
Then put a hose clamp on the end and try prying it out with a large screwdriver.
Or make a puller jig like Ron suggests.
You want the bars out so you can inspect/redo the paint and lube the splines.
Before you re-install the spring plates, open all bolts, lube with anti-seize, then place the smaller plate in the middle of the larger plate (Eccenter bolt in the middle position)
Then adjust height by applying the 40/44 spline principle.
Now you can go to a shop with 911-experience and do a 4-wheel alignment plus corner balancing for around $300.- (Well worth it!)
I found that doing all the preliminary work like lube and height plus leaving the eccentric bolts in neutral allowed for an easy alignment and CB.

[AVIMAX]

Gunter,

All sounds logical to me, except the hose clamp bit. I don't quite follow how to pry the bar with a screw driver. You mean a hose clamp like I buy a Canadian Tire for my garden hose? Anyways, assuming I get the bars out and get the height set properly, I agree that the eccentric bolts should be left in the middle to help the alignment shop. Now I must find a good 911 shop in Toronto, or I assume the local Porsche dealer should know what to do (or maybe not?). Eurowerks in Woodbridge was suggested, but I can't find them on the net or the yellow pages. Any Torontonians out there have any suggestions? Any experience with Pfaff Porsche in Woodbridge? They are probably a rip off, but they should know how to align Porsches.

[Gunter]

If I remember correctly, the bar sticks out a certain amount and the hose clamp would be mounted on the bar in such a way that it allows a large screwdriver to be used for leverage.
Tip behind the clamp and pry against the tube after cracking the bar lose with a hefty tap with a 4-lb hammer.
Put some Alu or Brass junk on the bar so the splines don't get damaged when you hammer.
When you pry or pull on the bar, keep it straight/centered in the tube.
Let us know what works.

[AVIMAX]

Got it now. Thanks.

[AVIMAX]

Went back to try again and this time, when I removed the spring plate, the torsion bar came with it and was stuck in the spring pate. Seems I get to experience both scenarios - stuck in car, stuck in spring plate. It seems that depending on how I removed the spring plate determined what the bars would do. If I just pryed the spring plate off the car without any wiggling, then the torsion bar came with it. If I wiggled the spring plate off without prying, the bar stayed in the car. So now I have successfully lowered the rear using the angle method, and set the height adjustment bolts to the middle to allow final adjustment in both directions. The right side and left side are almost the same, within 1/8" of each other, (24.75" and 24.875" to fenders). I need to check the height to the torsion bars for proper checking still. A little fine tuning should make it perfect. Now the fronts. I found that the front could not be lowered enough by only turning the adjustment screws, so it looks like I will have to remove the caps and re-index them. Any tips before I do this and make a stupid mistake?

Thanks.

[Gunter]

Sounds like the rear worked out.
Did you install new Neotrix bushings or leave the old rubber ones?

All weight has to be off in front before re-indexing.
What fender height in front are you aiming for? 25"?
How much fuel in the tank?
Do you have the bump-steer spacers under the rack?
If you go for 25", you'll want to install the spacers.

[AVIMAX]

I am aiming for 25"-25.25" for the front since the rear is around 24.75" I am going to take measurements at the rear torsion bars and wheels centres (Canadian spelling!) and then determine what the front should be between the wheel centres and the sway bar (I think that's how it's checked), but I am pretty sure that will work out to around 25.25" in the front fenders. The fuel is almost full, I have the bump steer spacers and since it looks pretty easy to do, I will wait until after I lower it to check how much bump steer there is and then put them in if necessary (I'm sure it will be). I hope the torsion bar caps pop off without too much trouble! Am I correct to think that I want the arms of the caps to be adjusted down for lower ride height, so I should re-index and install them with the arms higher up? Not sure if that even makes sense to me, it should be all clear once I am under the car.

I left the old rubber bushings in the rear. They probably should be replaced, but actually didn't look too bad, not to much flow, so for now I will leave them and save the bushing replacement for another project, another year.

I am going to go see a local shop around the corner, EU Autowerks that I found mentioned on the site a few times to inquire about alignment and corner balancing. I think I may have them install the turbo tie rods since it looks like it will be a pain to get the old ones off while lying on the floor.

[Gunter]

Sounds like a good plan.
~25" front means you'll need the rack spacers!
Open the smugglers box.
You'll see the U-joint on the steering column, which is clamped to the splined shaft.
Just loosen the upper clamp-bolt and spray some lube on the splines before you push up on the rack.
To get the spacers in the easy way, take one existing short bolt out, replace with the new longer bolt for just a few threads.
Remove the old short bolt on the other side, push the rack up, install spacer and new longer bolt loosely, then install spacer and new bolt on the other side.
This way you don't have to grope for the threaded holes.
Tighten both new bolts and finally, tighten the U-joint clamp.

Adjusting ride-height front is the other way around: Moving the adjuster-tongue UP means lowering; use oil on the screw-threads and contact-point

I suggest you do the rack-spacers and re-indexing the T-bars at the same time because the front has to be lifted to do both. (No weight)
Lift safely with extra supports.

[AVIMAX]

Thanks Gunter, that definitely sounds like a plan. I am going to throw the spacers in at the same time. A good suggestion about how to put in the bolts. By the way, ran out at lunch to check out EU Autowerks and make an appointment for an alignment. $295.00 - sounds good. The guy there did not recommend corner balancing if I am not taking the car on the track. He said if the car is lowered properly, meaning even all around, and aligned, it is a waste for the street. Seemed a little odd, but I'll try it out and if it's not good, I can always go back and have it corner balanced. Lots of '80s 911's there, so they must know something!