Light weight Air Conditioning?

[911st]

If one were to want to reduce the weight of ones air conditing system or build a light weight A/C system what could be done?

Is there a light weight compressor bracket?

Any light weight compressors?

Some hoses are lighter than others and the C2 has Aloy lines.

What would be a light weight condenser?
Much of the weight is in the condensers and motors.

Dose a belly condenser weigh much (no fan) and if was the only condenser, would it work?

Assume all the stuff in the smugglers box would have to stay.

One approach could be to remove the deck lid and under body Carrera condensers, use now light weight hoses and going to a C2 fender mount. Would at least get the weight and heat out of the back.

I know -- just take it all out an put in a fan...

Any thoughts.

[Trotskyite]

Sub'd. I like your line of thought. I want to rebuild my A/C system at some point before next summer. I am definitely am more interested in modernizing/simplifying what I can, as opposed to adding more and bigger.

[LM3929]

the lightest you can go is the 2 - 40 system.

LM

[SCWDP911]

subd.

I took my compressor out of my 83 today to start my heater backdate. Man, a little bit of a pain but not too bad. A lot of little misc brackets on mine going to different places. I am sure their must have been a reason to design it this way, but makes removal a pain.

My car is a cabriolet. I am in the southeast though and I really could use the AC. My compressor is shot (leaking somewhere to the point you can hear it when we put N2 to the system. It needs replaced or rebuilt (if possible). So, interested to see where your train of thought goes in this thread.

I would think the lightweight brackets would be easy enough to fab up out of some Al. I may try to do that while my crap is out of the back now. I have some Al plate I could try it out on. Just need some time.

[tcar]

Originally Posted by 911st

If one were to want to reduce the weight of ones air conditing system or build a light weight A/C system what could be done?

Is there a light weight compressor bracket?

Any light weight compressors?

Some hoses are lighter than others and the C2 has Aloy lines.

What would be a light weight condenser?
Much of the weight is in the condensers and motors.

Dose a belly condenser weigh much (no fan) and if was the only condenser, would it work?

Assume all the stuff in the smugglers box would have to stay.

One approach could be to remove the deck lid and under body Carrera condensers, use now light weight hoses and going to a C2 fender mount. Would at least get the weight and heat out of the back.

I know -- just take it all out an put in a fan...

Any thoughts.

Would help if we knew what year your car is.

Weight off the rear is more important than weight off the front.

Rear condenser is pretty light. Don't know what you mean by 'lightweight condenser'. Probably only weighs a pound or two.

Compressor brackets are fairly light, and are low - below the CG.

If you have a big York compressor, a rotary compressor is lighter. The compressor in the rear is definitely the heaviest item.

Problem w/ belly condenser is that there is no airflow unless the car is moving. No good way to put a fan on one.

Interested in more thoughts.

[SCWDP911]

Mine has the York. I just weighed it on a shipping scale.

The York Compressor (again, off my 83 cabriolet) weighs in at 22 lbs.!

The mounting brackets and hardware are another 5 lbs!

Anyone have one of the others you could weigh?

[LM3929]

Some of the later Carreras have Alum brackets already.

LM

[tcar]

Originally Posted by v8_ranch

Mine has the York. I just weighed it on a shipping scale.

The York Compressor (again, off my 83 cabriolet) weighs in at 22 lbs.!

The mounting brackets and hardware are another 5 lbs!

Anyone have one of the others you could weigh?

Well, I thought there would be a bigger difference.

My Sanden 'rotary' compresser w/ the bracket that bolts to the stock bracket weighs 19 lbs.. I'm surprised that it's that heavy. (Bathroom scale, but moderately accurate.)

Can't imagine you'll save more that a pound, maybe two, making aluminium brackets. Doesn't seem worth it.

Friend w/out A/C put operable vent windows in his car (from an earlier car) which helps greatly at speed, but in slow traffic not much.

[LM3929]

don't make the brackets as they are available used and your friend has the 2 - 40 model already I see.

LM

[JeremyD]

I've always thought that if you could simplify you could improve. I've thought about this quite a bit and for my next car I plan on eliminating the front and rear condensors replacing both with an underbelly big condensor (weight down low) and trying to shorten some of the lines, returns. Maybe move the receiver dryer from the left front to reduce the amount of hose.

[tcar]

Originally Posted by JeremyD

I've always thought that if you could simplify you could improve. I've thought about this quite a bit and for my next car I plan on eliminating the front and rear condensors replacing both with an underbelly big condensor (weight down low) and trying to shorten some of the lines, returns. Maybe move the receiver dryer from the left front to reduce the amount of hose.

How are you going to get airflow over the underbelly condenser? People on here have said that's a big problem with them.

Not much room for fan(s) at least that won't get torn off on the first speed bump.

Interested.

[911st]

My car is an 85.

What year has the alu bracket?

The condenser on the back of my frig dose not have a fan on it ether. Heat rises.

Besides, we have a big fan with a motor that pushes a lot of air out the bottom of the car and should keep air moving to some degree in that area until we start moving again. On the flip side, on a hot day the ground is very hot.

A test is to have someone through a lit cig under a car with the motor running and see where the smoke goes.

To me clearance is the issue with a belly mount.

I think the Rennair hose kit saves some weight, an alu bracket could, the right compressor might.

Then it comes down to the condensers and blower motors. A system that dose not require a blower motor could save weight.

Getting the rear deck condenser out of there is a gain. Less weight in the back and more cool air for the motor. (Porsche did this with the C2.)

[tcar]

Originally Posted by 911st

My car is an 85.

The condenser on the back of my frig dose not have a fan on it ether. Heat rises.

Yes, it DOES. With a 200 plus hp motor. That's why it works so well. That's the whole point. Some people have added pull through elect fans to assist the engine cooling fan.

(The engine fan pulls air through the vent in the lid grille, through the condensor and blows across the cylinders and out the bottom.)

Even the front condenser has a fan or it's worthless.

Getting the rear deck condenser out of there is a gain. Less weight in the back and more cool air for the motor. (Porsche did this with the C2.)

Shoot, it only weighs a couple pounds and it's the most effective condensor you have with that 200 hp fan.

[911st]

Sorry, I was talking about the under belly style condenser.

Thinking that if air is blowing out under the car from the motor cooling fan, it will create a pull of air across the under car condenser.

[kuehl]

Originally Posted by 911st

If one were to want to reduce the weight of ones air conditi(o)ng system or build a light weight A/C system what could be done?

Is there a light weight compressor bracket?

A pre-84 911 steel bracket system complete weight about 7.5 lbs with bolts and nuts. (the Kuehl version is a bit lighter)
A post 84 (or 84-89) 911 aluminum bracket system complete weighs around 2 lbs.
The steel adapter brackets to adapt a 507 to a pre-84 engine weigh less than
the stock brackets by a few ounces but not more that inexpensive aluminum universal adapter bracket.

Any light weight compressors?

A pre-84 911 York weighs about 22 lbs.
A Kuehl 507 (alike the Sanden) weighs about 17 lbs.
An 84+ Nippondenso weighs 13 lbs 11 oz.
A 964 or 993 compressor weighs about 13 lbs.
When it comes to compressors, bigger (in capacity) is not better.

Some hoses are lighter than others and the C2 has Aloy lines.

Stock and normal barrier hoses for a two condenser factory ac system weigh about 9 lbs less fittings; aluminum fittings vs. steel fittings might save you a few ounces total. I did a calculation of reduced barrier hose sometime back, guess its laying around here in an old thread, there is some savings but nothing to hoot about. Aluminum is lighter however you'd have to do the bends and brazing and then you have issues with abrasion which happens on 964's and 993's from time to time.

What would be a light weight condenser?

Aluminum is lighter than copper designs in most instances.
A stock 911 rear deck lid condenser, depending upon the year
weighs approximately 4 lbs 4 ounces in aluminum.
A stock 911 front condenser weighs 2 lbs.
A Kuehl high performance front serpentine condenser approx. 2 lbs 3 oz.
A front serpentine railroad track hammer condenser, that is twice the thickness of the stock condenser, weighs about 4 lbs 2 oz.
When it comes to condensers weight and thickness are not indications of performance, but rather overall design is.

Dose (does) a belly condenser weigh much (no fan) and if was the only condenser, would it work?

Don't know the weight of the Armadillo Killer, however is probably more than
the combined weight of the stock deck lid condenser plus the front stock condenser. And, no. An Armadillo Killer alone will not provide enough condenser function. Look what happened to this 911 owner:

Assume all the stuff in the smugglers box would have to stay.

Yes.
However a stock pre-86 evaporator weighs 5 lbs.
A stock 86+ evaporator weighs about 2lbs 9 oz.
A Kuehl evaporator weighs 3lbs.
A knock off of the Kuehl Evaporator weighs 2 lbs 13 oz.
The Kuehl Evaporator is more efficient than the 4 examples.

One approach could be to remove the deck lid and under body Carrera condensers, use now light weight hoses and going to a C2 fender mount. Would at least get the weight and heat out of the back.

A 964/993 single condenser with fan assembly weighs 14 lbs 4 oz.
A Kuehl Stage 3 fender condenser system, along with the stock deck lid and stock front condenser weighs less, about 1 lb than a single 964/993 set up in a 911, however the 964/993 total ac system probably weighs more as the evaporator, box and fans add more weight.

I know -- just take it all out an put in a fan...

Yeah, you could put in a Kuehl Wirbelsturm (Hurricane) Evaporator Blower Motor; Blows 30% more air than stock OEM motor

Any thoughts.

A gallon of petrol weighs 5.8 to 6.5 lbs. Don't fill the tank all the way up.
Toss out the water bottle and use a water pistol.
Cut down on the cookies at Christmas time.
Get rid of the passenger an its seat.
Put helium in the tires or reduce the carbon foot print with hydrogen.

Put in a good ac system, forget about the weight and just get a
Kuehl Flux Capacitor

[SCWDP911]

Great info Kuehl! I knew my York was 22lbs, but no clue about the others. Are they all pretty much interchangeable, minus some mounting bracket fab work. Do the later ones have the same fittings. Somewhere in my confused mind, I remember an AC guy telling me that the fittings on some older cars (he considered my 83 old), were different than the newer ones.

BTW, how much are the flux capacitors running these days. My old one does not work anymore.

[SCWDP911]

Excuse my ignorance, but this has me wondering something else based on kuehl's info:

aside from any benefits of more cool air to engine, would it be better overall to use the lightweight stock 4lb rear condenser, or use the heavier 14lb fender mount unit.

[911st]

kuehl,

Outstanding info!

Will start to cut down on the cookies and beer tomorrow.

Pelecan says there hose kit takes 10 lbs off the car. ???

My car is an 85 so I must have the aloy bracket and smaller bracket.

Seems like it would be nice to get the pre heater (rear condenser) out.

When I took the AC out of my 72 it seemed to weight about 100 lbs. Sounds like the newer ones must be less.

kuehl, any idea how much weigh the newer Carrera units weigh if removed?

There is about 40 lbs or so hiding in the sunroof...

Oh, and I really like that hot air - air conditioning system in the last picture.

[911st]

not bracked, ...smaller compressor...

[kuehl]

Pelecan says there hose kit takes 10 lbs off the car. ???

Can't tell ya. I never weighed it. However, if you take a 911SC, replace the
York with any brand 507 compressor kit, then difference would be a min. of 5 lbs less.

My car is an 85 so I must have the aloy bracket and smaller bracket.

Yes.
Most of the 911 factory air cars up through 1983 used Yorks with 3 piece steel bracket system, 4 if you count the funky strap. Some very early narrow body 911's used a smaller York, some had a crescent bracket with an idler pulley to annoy the cam chain tensioner studs. From 1984 onward the 911 used the
13 lbs 11 oz Nippon. On the turbo cars, 76-79 used a York, some 78-79 used a swash plate Nippon (not like the 911) then went back to the York, and then switched to the Nippon again in 1983 (euro) and later US cars.

Seems like it would be nice to get the pre heater (rear condenser) out.

That may have been the thinking with 89C4 and 964 and 993, however I think they tossed it because it interfered with the 'toy' trunk or Flyin Venetian Blind . But many 964/993 owners complain about insufficient condenser area; so the 14 lb. 4 oz. lead weight in the LH front does not appear to be the solution.

[quote]
When I took the AC out of my 72 it seemed to weight about 100 lbs. Sounds like the newer ones must be less. [quote]
Well that depends if you had a single deck lid system, or two condenser system, or whether it was factory air or VPC or other. The narrow bodies typically had knee-pad-vent panel which weighs 5 lbs. 6 oz however they did not have center floor consoles. Its all about heat transfer and "energy" and it takes "xx" hp, or joules or kilo-watt'ers or whatever you favorite cookie plus xx mass.
I'm surprised no one has brought up the carbon issue.

kuehl, any idea how much weigh(t) the newer Carrera units weigh if removed?

I guess you mean 84+. Hmmm, well you could re-read the thread, add up the children and then figure other items like the evap box with blower fan (less evaporator) which would be about 5 lbs give or take with brackets and resistor pack, then you got the wire harness, air tubes, air valves,
etc..... Really, how far do you want to take this? I"m sure when the engineers sit down today (fuel prices) they are designing the parts with the thinnest wall thickness's and lightest materials they can choose from... economically though, after all you don't want to pay too much for the new wheels.

There is about 40 lbs or so hiding in the sunroof...

Run with less fuel, toss out the passg. seat.

Oh, and I really like that hot air - air conditioning system in the last picture.

75-100+ rwhp without an intercooler, stock exhaust, stock dme, stock injectors, stock spark, stock pump fuel. .... And, the ac is chilling.

aside from any benefits of more cool air to engine, would it be better overall to use the lightweight stock 4lb rear condenser, or use the heavier 14lb fender mount unit.

All depends up your particular requirements: color of car, interior color, the ambient and humidity you drive in, number of passengers, and more.

I knew my York was 22lbs, but no clue about the others. Are they all pretty much interchangeable, minus some mounting bracket fab work. Do the later ones have the same fittings. Somewhere in my confused mind, I remember an AC guy telling me that the fittings on some older cars (he considered my 83 old), were different than the newer ones.

If you are speaking of 'factory air cars', the 911 up through 83 had the steel bracket system. You need an adapter bracket to attach a 507 or later nippon. You need different hose end fittings. On the 911, up through 83 used flare, 84+ used o-ring fittings.

BTW, how much are the flux capacitors running these days. My old one does not work anymore.

Kuehl Flux Capacitor prices.....hmmmmm. Have not tallied the B/M just yet, however the question is what would you be willing to pay for 75-100 rwhp which you could bolt on in a day, on the ground, as opposed to some funky chip and muffler, engine drop and engine internal upgrades to achieve the same result.