Drivability problem solved with new injectors

[Jim Williams]

Originally Posted by rpmoore2

Do you know where the markings are on the engine case.

So lets assume I have a modified US version motor and the Lambda system plumbing was removed to make it work in my car. This may be a dumb ? can the WUR from the 2.7 L original to my 77 be installed on a 81 3.0 L to accomendate the lack of a Lambda system. I would then assume there is a vacuum line from the lower intake system to the WUR to adjust the mixture based on engine load. But how would they accomplish this.

I assume I could look at the part number of the WUR and cross check it to a year.

What else could they do. I just assume getting a Euro 3.0 L would be difficult?

Anyway the shop told me specifically I do not have an O2 sensor on the car. So either this US version was converted to make it work using a different WUR or they PO happen to get a EURO motor.

Now I am really interested in getting to the bottom of this.

Thanks for your help

So many questions, so little information to work with...
The type number on the engine case is located on the right side of the case, behind the oil pressure sensor, to the right of the alternator.

The 930/xx number is the one you are looking for. (You won't find the 3.1 on your case).

Some definitions:
1) The O2 sensor is the component threaded into your exhaust system.
2) The Lambda system is the sum total of the electrical and fuel related parts of this system, of which the O2 Sensor is only one component.

You say "Let's assume..." A lot of time can be misspent making assumptions.
You need to find out what we are actually working with. What is actually on your car? If you don't know the details of what's on and in your engine, you should go to your shop and ask them to furnish you the information. How has your engine been modified? Internally, Externally? Has the entire Lambda system been removed? Only the O2 sensor removed? Is the Frequency Valve still in the return line? Stock Fuel Distributor, etc.?

The part numbers for the various components are listed, by year, on the website you listed in one of your earlier posts.

[rpmoore2]

I wish I had a picture to prove my case #. I have a 930/10. I'm definitely going to check
this again tomorrow just to be sure.

So in your words "Euro engine was a type 930/10" I have a Euro motor.

I did confirm no Pop Off valve so I think that should be my next project.

I will post more information tomorrow or the weekend as I find more part #s.

[rpmoore2]

I did get part of the Fuel Dist part # with my flash light . It ended with 100 097. That was all I could see. I looked at the CIS Primer url parts list and could find anything related.

[Jim Williams]

I didn't list the Euro numbers on my website, because when the site was first posted, the Euro (grey market) cars were not as common as they are now, plus this info was harder to come by. The 097 is the number I find listed for the '81 - '83 Euro 3.0 liter. For further verification, you could get the numbers from the airflow sensor and the WUR, plus those from the AAR, if you can see them with the AAR mounted on the car. Although, the numbers you have found so far certainly are pointing at a Euro engine (which, straight from the factory, didn't have the Lambda system to begin with).

I am surprised your shop didn't pass this possibility on to you when questioned about the O2 sensor.

[rpmoore2]

Some of the part#s are hard to find. I tried to take pictures tonight as I find things and having trouble getting good shots. I have started with the case #
I spoke with another shop today and will set up an appointment to get the oil change and pop off valve installed. I'm not ready this year to dive into anything yet myself. I just want to get to the bottom of what (they lacked telling me) I have. I somewhat feel dumb so far. I tried asking all the right questions. I am glad so far I have a Euro FD. However, the new shop told me today its harder and harder to find replacement euro FDs so hopefully mine never goes bad. So the weekend I will try my best finding parts for the WUR and the others you listed. I was told my AAR is not working anymore and I am betting my AAV is sticking a bit with the oscilating idle (I get sometimes cold)





The other shop said they would also document everything I had. They were experienced with Euro conversions. I don't plan on going in for a few weeks to get an oil change unless I have more gremlins in the car.

Thanks

[rpmoore2]

What is the best way to find the part# on the WUR and air flow sensor.

Do I have the WUR located?


I'm wondering what this 2nd picture part is. Is it the AAV? Or is this the deceleration valve.


I saw a T-line in the back. Is this the AAR?


Beside the fuel filter is this the fuel accumulator?


So far confirmed parts.



You should be aware I bought the car from the shop who did the rebuild. Its a long story other than I can say they owned the car and did the rebuild. I bought the car in the spring from them after the work was done. I was not told that it was a Euro motor. I asked a lot of ?s but in retrospect they jumped around the answers and never were specific. All I knew is the motor was a 81 3.0LSC. They do have a good reputation. Interesting it took them a long time to find the crank shaft. No I probably have no upgrades. It's a Euro spec motor with different heads and compression.
I guess I liked the car because it was a rebuilt transmission and new clutch too so I thought it was a good deal. I didn't pay a lot for the car so I still think it is okay. I just need to get a handle on what I have. That's my goal right now. Next is to understand the tuning specs ; fuel and ignition. And then if it is possible get some documentation on the Euro motor to begin reading.

Thanks for your help.

[Jim Williams]

First photo: Yes, this is the WUR.
Second: The Aux Air Regulator
Third: The Deceleration Valve behind the throttle body
Fourth: Fuel Filter and Accumulator
Fifth: Fuel Distributor, mounted on top of the Air Flow Sensor. The AFS will also have a part number on a metal tag (similar to the FD tag) , which you can see with a little effort. Only the last three digits are needed to verify which version you have.

Numbers on the WUR: stamped on the top surface, unfortunately very hard if not impossible to see with the fuel connections in place. Only the last 3 digits are important.
Numbers on the AAR: stamped on the face of the AAR, on the right side. You can't see them without either removing it, or using a mirror. Again like the WUR, only the last three digits are important.

On my website, if you go to the components page, and click on the title above each description, you will find a photo of each of these items. For the AAV photo, I find the text under the photo missing. I will have to correct this when I can, recently I haven't been able to get the server to respond to my upload request.

[rpmoore2]

Where is the AAV? Is it inside the air box?

[rpmoore2]

Also Is the stamp for the air flow sensor on the same side as the FD. The right side or back. I was looking all around the base of the FD last night. I knew the FD was the head and had a good idea below was the air flow sensor.

[mca]

Originally Posted by rpmoore2

Where is the AAV? Is it inside the air box?

I believe the AAV is just behind the AAR (it is on my 82 SC) ... saucer looking component usually brass colored. Take a look and see if it is there.

[rpmoore2]

The only thing I see right on top of the WUR is a stamp 916. I don't think that's it so I'll continue looking including the AAV.

[rpmoore2]

I just bought the 911SC Bentley Service manual. Should I return it since I have a Euro motor. Just wondering. Thanks

[Jim Williams]

I can't really answer your question about the Bentley Manual, as I don't have one, and don't feel qualified to make a judgment. However, I think if you will use the assets on Pelican to learn of the differences (you've already learned about the CIS), the book will probably have a lot of useful info. While the engine may have a few differing components, the methods of working on a US and a Euro engine are basically the same, and if you don't have the Bentley describing repairs to a US engine, you won't have any Bentley describing repairs to a Euro engine.

The steps to removing say, a camshaft, will be the same for either engine type.

[TibetanT]

One suggestion, if you plan on keeping this car is to purchase a book titled :
Porsche 911SC - The Essential Companion 1978-1983.
This book explains all of the differences with the European and U.S. models AND has many good pictures showing you exactly where all the components are within the engine compartment, within the interior and the model's changes each year.
The book also has very good pictures of engines (types) and explains which years and models had which engine. For example, I believe the type you have is a 930/16 which maps to the year of your car. (At least that is what I thought I saw in the picture you took of the engine number...looks like a 16 not a 10).

Another really great reference is the Porsche Factory shop manuals. They will compliment the Bentley manual you purchased.
Hope this helps.

[rpmoore2]

Just to clarify it is definitely a 930/10. My camera is not taking very good pictures. I had my neighbor check it too and we both agree it is a 930/10. It was also confirmed I have a Euro FD.
Thanks all

[TibetanT]

Okay, that is good! 930/09 and 930/10 type engines are both ROW class engines.

As far as the issues you are currently dealing with, Jim Williams is correct! Get an expert to tell you what has been done, a list, so you know exactly what you are dealing with. For example, according to some literature I have read with regard to the 930/10 ROW engine, its specifications call for the use of Leaded gasoline (reference page 97 of the Porsche 911SC - The Essential Companion), so that would make a big difference.

Here is what I have regarding your Engine type: 930/10

Bore mm/inch 95.0/3.74
Stroke mm/inch 70.4/2.77
Displacement cc/cu.in. 2994/ 182.7
Compression ration 9.8/1
Horsepower kW/hp @ rpm 150/204 @5900
Torque Nm/lbft @ rpm 267/196 @ 4200
Max. rpm 7000
Idle speed rpm 900/+ or - 50
Fuel grade 98RON leaded (ROW)
Oil press @ 5000rpm 4.5 bar
Oil comsump. litre/1000km/600 miles 1.5/1.05


Now, with that said, about the only thing that I might disagree about, and most here on Pelican would attest to, is the comsumpsion of 1 US quart of oil every 600 miles. To me, that seems a little high for street driving and with that high a comsumption rate, I would begin to plan an engine rebuild and at least get a leakdown/compression test done to see what is causing the current burn rate.

I hope you can get some resolution soon.

Once again, I am no expert especially since I don't know the answer to the "Leaded" or "Unleaded" gasoline question, but I do know that my 1963 Ranchero with a 289 engine needs leaded gasoline. The unleaded gasoline burns too hot and can degradate the metals of my valves quickly and cause serious damage to components, as well as the engine if not addressed.

[rpmoore2]

How would one find leaded gas or mix lead into gasoline in the US? Any one out there with a Euro car or engine with an opinion on use of unleaded gas.

Also after the new FIs, shop 1 wants me to have the mixture adjusted after 500 miles which wasn't a big concern to shop 2.

I'm curious -are they just adjusting the idle mixture or would they have to recalibrate the FD? I would think the latter is a pretty big deal to do if you don't suspect any volume issues between injectors.

Car is running much better now after the last Saturday issues.

Also has any one ever installed one of those O2 sensors and air fuel ratio monitors on their 78/79. I wonder if there is an advantage for me.

Also still working on part #s. It may take shop 2 to document the remaining parts for me.

Thanks

[rpmoore2]

Per http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/gen99/gen99615.htm
From the web site:
"The Unites States and most other countries switched from leaded to unleaded
fuel years ago. The lead additive, tetraethyllead, retarded "preignition"
in gasoline engines. Preignition causes engines to run rough, and to not
shut off when the key is turned off. The suppression of preignition is
measured by the gasoline's "octane rating". A good high-octane gasoline
allows a standard engine to run smoothly. Leaded gasoline also protected
some older car engines from wearing down by covering soft engine parts with
lead-containing material.

There are two major problems with using leaded fuel. 1) Lead is extremely
toxic, and causes mental retardation in children. Lead oxide from car
exhaust accumulates in soil near roads, and children can get it on their
hands from playing outside. They then ingest it, and it causes its damage.
2) Leaded gasoline ruins automobile catalytic converters. As a result of
these two problems, lead in gasoline has been banned in the U.S. Other
additives, such as methyl-tert-butyl ether (which is about to be banned),
had to be used to improve gasoline's octane rating."

a. I'm not going to send out toxic waste in our neighborhood. So I guess my engine is exploding soon.
b. What if I wanted to put on a catalytic converter on my engine. It would still run. Didn't the 77 911S with 2.7L have a catalytic converter.
c. Are the metals in the '81 Euro 3.0 engine valves etc. that much different than the US cousin? If not, again I guess I'm in trouble.

What do track people do with their car? Is there anything different in the fuel they use?

[rpmoore2]

Now I'm angry. Shop 1 hard wired my fuse panel to make the fuel pump run on Ignition On. Why why why... It runs I can hear it CLEARLY without the car running....

I'm done with these people. I should drive the car to the shop write what the f$#k on paper around the jump wire and disconnect the jump wire fuse. Like to see them try to start the car to go to the fuse box. Of course they would charge me $$$ just to check the fuse box first.

How could they play with my life? A KEY SAFETY FEATURE!!! How could they sell this car?

Okay, I'm learning about 911s. My experience is now ruined with this car. My
wife just wants me to part it out and get the best $ for it.

I'm definitely calling Shop 1 tomorrow to get this resolved. It is one thing not
to tell me I have a Euro motor -it is another thing to rebuild the engine and disable the fuel pump. Even if they didn't do the Euro conversion they should have put it back together properly. Come on --this is suppose to be a reputable shop in Milwaukee.

So who wants my Euro 3.0 L, CIS, Tran and Clutch? The engine is good, tranny rebuilt 10 K ago, new clutch and it runs great. Shop 2 is significantly better and could attest to this power train. I have good Fuchs and 2 targa tops. I'm sure there are other parts worth something.

I knew going into this purchase 911s are expensive to maintain. This is different. I trusted these people.

Sorry you don't have to respond.. I'm upset right now.

[rpmoore2]

Per instructions of the shop today (who rebuilt the motor) told me to pull the fuse on the jumped wire to prove his point. He thought maybe
a. that the fuel pump safety switch may have been disabled, as he put it, people did it in the past to solve a vapor lock problem in the fuel system on warm start up.
b. He also wasn't sure if the electrical system on a 77 had the safety switch.

Anyway I pulled the fuse and the car would not start and I definitely didn't hear the fuel pump on Ignition on.

So to point b. someone forced the fuel pump to work so I suspect the 77 911 had this switch. Regarding point a. if that was true then upon removing the jumped fuse the car would still start which it did not.

The question is could he have mis-wired the air flow sensor and not realize it because he didn't know the fuse panel hard wired the fuel pump.

Or maybe the car has to have the fuel pump working on Ignition On for it to work. Could there be a faulty Fuel Accumulator or Check Valve. I definitely tried
and tried to start the car and all it did is crank.

If someone could clarify the fuel pump relay and how it works. When the airflow sensor is closed is there ground and hence the fuel pump doesn't work, and then when the contact is broken the ground is broken, and a solenoid in the relay connects the power to the fuel pump. Or is it the reverse.

Thanks